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Moskva down

Old 18th Apr 2022, 06:19
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Have just seen a Japanese news site quoting 'an independent news site' Novaya Gazeta Europe (sp?) with some different figures of 40 dead, 27 missing, and large numbers of wounded. Usual pinch of salt advised.
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 06:26
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Notice most of the rear liferaft pods just fwd of the hangar are gone, possibly more got off, or the strike on the mid section blew them overboard?

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Old 18th Apr 2022, 08:07
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The fire seems concentrated right in the centre of the ship - which is where you'd expect any missile to lock onto

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Old 18th Apr 2022, 09:05
  #244 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
Notice most of the rear liferaft pods just fwd of the hangar are gone, possibly more got off, or the strike on the mid section blew them overboard?

https://twitter.com/CovertShores/sta...878404/photo/1
I don't see much evidence of the heavy sea state that was said to have caused her to sink.

edit : Just noticed Mr Wotsalizad had already pointed this out.

edited again : I guess that if this is the Russian definition of a stormy sea then it's consistent with a bit of slush in Salisbury being sufficient for two KGB agents to turn back from their visit to the Cathedral due to blizzard conditions.


Last edited by B Fraser; 18th Apr 2022 at 09:19.
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 09:14
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Just read a long article in Japanese by a defence analyst who points out a list of reasons why China will be in serious shock over the obvious vulnerability to anti-ship missiles of the Moskva. Their fleet is based on Soviet/Russian design, so they will need a complete rethink. Taiwan is bristling with such missiles which will threaten any sea-borne attempt at invasion. By the same token all of the China Sea countries which have been brow-beaten and bullied by these larger Chinese ships in recent years will have taken due notice and adjusted their shopping lists accordingly.
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 09:16
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Very brief video clip, 2 seconds, is doing the rounds now and seem to confirm WillFlyForCheese's sleuthing.
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 09:18
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I'm intrigued by those soot marks at various locations along the hull-deck join. Suggests widespread fire below decks?

That's sea state 1...
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 09:19
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There's even a brief video of it taken from astern, with that tug pulled away a little. The wind direction is from the north if anyone wants to figure out the time of day from the shadows.

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Old 18th Apr 2022, 09:35
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"I guess that if this is the Russian definition of a stormy sea then it's consistent with a bit of slush in Salisbury"

The Black Sea can get VERY rough but as you say this is milk pond conditions in the pictures
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 09:49
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The main damage appears to be exactly where the port mid-deck CIWS is located
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 10:15
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill
Is the apparent red coloring of the deck associated with whatever is coming out of the fire hoses?


Mjb
Russian upper decks tend to be painted red. Might be for the same reason as the British army used to wear red coats! - or maybe just anti-rust.

Mog
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 10:19
  #252 (permalink)  
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Good analysis. Seems the strike took out all power and damage control at the same time - design concentrates them exactly where SSMs seem targeted. Reinforcing the worries for China mentioned by Joli…

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Old 18th Apr 2022, 10:26
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Originally Posted by jolihokistix
and adjusted their shopping lists accordingly.
With large ships it is the same as with tanks. If the defender has access to high tech weapons they are easy prey. I assume even a CVBG will not be able to withstand an assault with several hypersonic missiles. It will boil down to a severe EW and jamming war. The time of large surface ships was over in WW2 as soon as you lost air superiority.
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 10:27
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Seems the strike
shurely the below decks fire..........
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 12:16
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Originally Posted by EDLB
With large ships it is the same as with tanks. If the defender has access to high tech weapons they are easy prey. I assume even a CVBG will not be able to withstand an assault with several hypersonic missiles. It will boil down to a severe EW and jamming war. The time of large surface ships was over in WW2 as soon as you lost air superiority.
Nothing new here.

There are reasons, military wants the latest of the latest technology: to be better than the potential enemy.

Without a CVBG or tank battalions, etc, you won't have any "offensive" options, so you need these. Just more fancy stuff to protect your classics.
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 12:37
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Originally Posted by fdr
Good effort in your research, WFFC.

There's gonna be a fairly high toll of the CIC team and others in that area north of the machinery spaces, but there should have been a recovery of much of the crew at least from the tub, how they will fare at Lefortovo is another matter. Russia is pretty tough on those that have dared to be survivors.... K-219, K-19 K429, etc...
Actually, given the majority of water ingress moves towards the stern, it suggests the initial explosion ripped through the ship, from the impact (roughly 1/3 front) to nearly the stern, either ripping out all (or at least releasing these from their water-tightness purposes) the bulkheads or just being confronted with all open bulkhead doors, which no longer close after the explosion. We need to be aware, the hull itself would be very strong, potentially the same for the deck itself, so an explosion stays inside the hull, unless deck or hull are heavily compromised. When this happens, people below deck have very little chances to survive the pressure wave. Given the impact timing, most people would have been in their quarters, below deck. Maybe this explains, we only see so little people saved.

Reasons to abandon a warship: imminent sinking or an expected big boom.

Just wondering: Did the Moskva turn-over, though was still floating ? In which position, the tow-back was attempted ? Given the latest pictures, there are little tow-attempts, whereas the timing would be not far from the "it's gone" moment.
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 13:25
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Just wondering: Did the Moskva turn-over, though was still floating ? In which position, the tow-back was attempted ? Given the latest pictures, there are little tow-attempts, whereas the timing would be not far from the "it's gone" moment.
If it did have certain assets on board, would you want to tow it back to port while it’s on fire? I know these kinds of weapons are by nature highly unlikely to go off properly unless triggered on purpose, but even a “fizzle” might be a big problem...
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 13:51
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
"I guess that if this is the Russian definition of a stormy sea then it's consistent with a bit of slush in Salisbury"
I'm inclined to go with the original report straight after the event, there doesn't appear to be any storm, the smoke indicates the wind is not all that strong, she is already listing to port while on fire and there are no life boats/rafts in the water. I very much doubt she was ever under tow, or that the fire was extinguished before she sank.
P.S I also note one of the helideck doors is ajar, if that's because it was blasted open, you wouldn't expect able bodied survivors below decks

Last edited by Xeptu; 18th Apr 2022 at 14:10.
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 13:58
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It took me a while to realise that what looks like a blackened and bent mast may actually have been a deck crane, normally stowed between the funnels. What were they trying to do with this crane before abandoning it in this odd position?

Also I notice that the water level on the port side is about the line where a dozen portholes are normally sited, way above normal water level. I guess Moskva must have been filling with water rapidly by this point?
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Old 18th Apr 2022, 14:09
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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The fact that is is daylight makes one wonder if they have cut the tow as it was in danger of foundering, the storm was a Russian excuse if I remember correctly.
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