What is going on at the top??
When the RAF was formed, one of the proposals for top brass ranks was something like: 1st , 2nd, 3rd Avion.
Now we shall have Leading Aviator, Senior Aviator, Senior Technician Aviator, Chief Technician Aviator, Master Aviator and Warrant Officer Aviator. Cor! what a lot to remember!
Old Duffer
Now we shall have Leading Aviator, Senior Aviator, Senior Technician Aviator, Chief Technician Aviator, Master Aviator and Warrant Officer Aviator. Cor! what a lot to remember!
Old Duffer
As for Master Aviator surely Master Aircrew is more appropriate?
Only 3 ranks need amending, or perhaps only 2 if the current SAC(T) was changed to something more appropriate, something like Junior Technician perhaps, with a four bladed propeller as a rank badge.
avioniker speak for yourself. There are plenty of baby Pterosaurs that are equally not in agreement with these suggestions. When this survey comes out then maybe it will be a surprise to all (one way or another). I see it like a referendum when often the most unexpected results upset the elite…
Perhaps you misunderstand my position on this matter, and that is, I don’t have one.
I served for 15 years and have been out for 22.
If the powers that be change the names of a few ranks it’s no skin off my nose.
Whether or not the change is required, or desired, is up to currently serving personnel to decide upon.
My opinion, along with all those who have previously served, is irrelevant.
I am no longer serving, so I guess my input is diminished somewhat, but I am not really surprised by anything the RAF leadership does these days. I wish all members of the RAF the best of luck, regardless of gender, orientation, colour or religion - even the white, straight minority.
However, as a taxpayer, I expect the leadership focus of the RAF to be warfighting and defence of the UK. Currently, I am not convinced this is the case.
However, as a taxpayer, I expect the leadership focus of the RAF to be warfighting and defence of the UK. Currently, I am not convinced this is the case.
"back in the day", Airmen made sense. Society has changed - 1 in 5 of the RAF is not male, so airmen seems inaccurate and innapropriate.
As usual the "of course there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" brigade are out in force getting worked up about a change that makes no impact or difference to their lives, but may make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now.
To those who say "but standards and in my day" - firstly, the operative phrase is 'your day' - that was then, this is now. Thank you for your service, but let those who are serving now express a view on what they want - your views are an irrelevance. Secondly, the RAF is always changing and has done since it was formed. The RAF you served in was so different to the one you joined, the one you learned about as a kid, and the one you left as to be a never permanent organisation - don't assume that because things were done a certain way once, that this continues to make sense.
Finally, you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have - you may want to get all angry and hit the keyboard moaning about snowflakes and diversity and how it was better when you were in - but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now. I personally think they deserve more respect than being insulted by yesterdays men who are unhappy with the idea of a very simple change.
As usual the "of course there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" brigade are out in force getting worked up about a change that makes no impact or difference to their lives, but may make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now.
To those who say "but standards and in my day" - firstly, the operative phrase is 'your day' - that was then, this is now. Thank you for your service, but let those who are serving now express a view on what they want - your views are an irrelevance. Secondly, the RAF is always changing and has done since it was formed. The RAF you served in was so different to the one you joined, the one you learned about as a kid, and the one you left as to be a never permanent organisation - don't assume that because things were done a certain way once, that this continues to make sense.
Finally, you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have - you may want to get all angry and hit the keyboard moaning about snowflakes and diversity and how it was better when you were in - but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now. I personally think they deserve more respect than being insulted by yesterdays men who are unhappy with the idea of a very simple change.
The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc.
People like you would do well to consider our expertise before displaying such an arrogant attitude.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Old-Duffer, the rank you are trying to remember is “Ardian”, but those were officer ranks.
The 1918-1919 non-commissioned ranks were: Warrant Officer Class I, Warrant Officer Class II, Flight Sergeant, Sergeant, Corporal and Air Mechanic, Private, Clerk and Boy as shown below.
The ranks below Corporal were amalgamated to SAC and LAC in 1919.
Mechanic, Clerk and Private are, of course, gender neutral - albeit having nothing to do with most modern roles.
WRAF ranks of the same period can be found in the link below.
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/...omment=2770614
The 1918-1919 non-commissioned ranks were: Warrant Officer Class I, Warrant Officer Class II, Flight Sergeant, Sergeant, Corporal and Air Mechanic, Private, Clerk and Boy as shown below.
The ranks below Corporal were amalgamated to SAC and LAC in 1919.
Mechanic, Clerk and Private are, of course, gender neutral - albeit having nothing to do with most modern roles.
WRAF ranks of the same period can be found in the link below.
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/...omment=2770614
Typical patronising response... How on earth will this 'make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now'? This is just political posturing and rearranging the deckchairs on a sinking ship with poor cabins and conditions.
The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc.
People like you would do well to consider our expertise before displaying such an arrogant attitude.
The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc.
People like you would do well to consider our expertise before displaying such an arrogant attitude.
Ninthace Your sailor has a role in the operation of the ship? Where you say that everyone doesn’t steer the ship, then I completely agree, but if you have an operating role on the ship then you are by definition not a passenger. Now I presume that a ship/boat is seen as an equivalent of an aircraft, so therefore only nauts should be those that operate the aircraft in some way or another? If you have an operating role on the ship then you are a sailor, if you don’t then you are a passenger. I would offer that a RAF Station has more in common with a Royal Naval Base and Dockyard rather than a ship?…
Typical patronising response... How on earth will this 'make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now'? This is just political posturing and rearranging the deckchairs on a sinking ship with poor cabins and conditions.
The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc.
People like you would do well to consider our expertise before displaying such an arrogant attitude.
The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc.
People like you would do well to consider our expertise before displaying such an arrogant attitude.
"The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc."
Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.
Stop presuming that the system is the same now as it was when you were in - it isn't.
Frankly there is nothing more cringeworthy than encountering retired veterans who assume that they a) know what is genuinely going on in the military today and b) that the modern military want them to 'fight their corner' because frankly they don't.
Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.
Stop presuming that the system is the same now as it was when you were in - it isn't.
Frankly there is nothing more cringeworthy than encountering retired veterans who assume that they a) know what is genuinely going on in the military today and b) that the modern military want them to 'fight their corner' because frankly they don't.
"The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc."
Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.
Stop presuming that the system is the same now as it was when you were in - it isn't.
Frankly there is nothing more cringeworthy than encountering retired veterans who assume that they a) know what is genuinely going on in the military today and b) that the modern military want them to 'fight their corner' because frankly they don't.
Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.
Stop presuming that the system is the same now as it was when you were in - it isn't.
Frankly there is nothing more cringeworthy than encountering retired veterans who assume that they a) know what is genuinely going on in the military today and b) that the modern military want them to 'fight their corner' because frankly they don't.
ORAC - you have just displayed Unconscious Bias and, no doubt, offended lots of people by showing in full that which relates to the males yet only offering a link to show what it is for females. That is sooo degrading and offensive.
I really can't believe that as a serving member of the RAF I have been so conditioned to spot and 'speak out' about such a terrible, shocking, hurtful and offensive thing! I must go to my 'Safe Space' and report you to the D&I people.
I really can't believe that as a serving member of the RAF I have been so conditioned to spot and 'speak out' about such a terrible, shocking, hurtful and offensive thing! I must go to my 'Safe Space' and report you to the D&I people.
A couple of years ago a senior aviator on a front line sqn was given a dressing down for reminding people on the station that if they didn't fly then it was their job to get the aviators airborne.
It would appear that those more senior than the senior aviator on that station did not share his view!
It would appear that those more senior than the senior aviator on that station did not share his view!
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Jimlad1
Not so. What I observe as someone serving is the stratification across the generations that are serving. It seems to be a divide between “Millenials” or “Gen Y”, that are roughly 29-42 years old, and the rest. That is very sweeping, but when you meet a lot of Service folks you start to gain that impression. This means that the “Boomers” (56-60), “Gen X” (42-56) and the new “Gen Z” (18-28) tend to get along - in fact it would appear that the younger Gen Z absolutely despise Gen Y (or Millenials). Now of course there are exceptions to this.
The trouble is “the top”, to which this thread refers, is in so much trouble as they are out of touch. They believe that the Next Gen Air Force is what the very noisy Gen Y/Millennials are screaming for - with some proper virtue signalling - when actually they are in a minority and likely to be retiring when Next Gen Air Force 2035-2040 comes around. So ‘the top’ would appear to be missing this disquiet from the newer generations of the RAF who are getting more and more annoyed - of course, they communicate in their own way and you only have to see some of Gen Z’s memes to see how proper p!ssed off they are. Some of us younger Gen Xs are ‘read into these memes’ and it shows what a huge gulf there is between what the majority of the RAF wants and what ‘the top’ believes they should be doing. The final thing to say is that Gen Z do things, they are activists and will be great leaders - I can see them leapfrogging the Twitterati Gen Y within the Armed Forces. With some similar values to Gen X, then I like that, and the fact that many are fed up with Gen Y’s social media ‘cancel culture’. They want to go toe-to-toe and confront some of this and that is why you see our kids attending more live demonstration than ever before.
Fascinating stuff and ‘the top’ really needs to stop following the Twitterati Warrant Officers and listen to the brighter talent with greater potential beneath them…
Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.
The trouble is “the top”, to which this thread refers, is in so much trouble as they are out of touch. They believe that the Next Gen Air Force is what the very noisy Gen Y/Millennials are screaming for - with some proper virtue signalling - when actually they are in a minority and likely to be retiring when Next Gen Air Force 2035-2040 comes around. So ‘the top’ would appear to be missing this disquiet from the newer generations of the RAF who are getting more and more annoyed - of course, they communicate in their own way and you only have to see some of Gen Z’s memes to see how proper p!ssed off they are. Some of us younger Gen Xs are ‘read into these memes’ and it shows what a huge gulf there is between what the majority of the RAF wants and what ‘the top’ believes they should be doing. The final thing to say is that Gen Z do things, they are activists and will be great leaders - I can see them leapfrogging the Twitterati Gen Y within the Armed Forces. With some similar values to Gen X, then I like that, and the fact that many are fed up with Gen Y’s social media ‘cancel culture’. They want to go toe-to-toe and confront some of this and that is why you see our kids attending more live demonstration than ever before.
Fascinating stuff and ‘the top’ really needs to stop following the Twitterati Warrant Officers and listen to the brighter talent with greater potential beneath them…
Jimlad1 - I am still serving and I agree with the majority of posts here.
Once the system has resolved the problems of infrastructure and the basics of hot water and heating referred to above; when we have sufficient personnel to fix and service aircraft so that aviators can maintain flying currency to try and increase their competence; when we have simulators which actually represent the aircraft being flown ... then we can perhaps look at changing NOTAM to NOTA and wingman to Air System Colleague variously tinker with the Queen's English to pacify activist-minded products of the current educational system.
I am asked if I am proud to be in the RAF. I have changed my answer in recent years, very sadly, to "No"!
Once the system has resolved the problems of infrastructure and the basics of hot water and heating referred to above; when we have sufficient personnel to fix and service aircraft so that aviators can maintain flying currency to try and increase their competence; when we have simulators which actually represent the aircraft being flown ... then we can perhaps look at changing NOTAM to NOTA and wingman to Air System Colleague variously tinker with the Queen's English to pacify activist-minded products of the current educational system.
I am asked if I am proud to be in the RAF. I have changed my answer in recent years, very sadly, to "No"!
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I am still serving
I am asked if I am proud to be in the RAF. I have changed my answer in recent years, very sadly, to "No"!
Genuine question: why have you not left?
Nil_Drift
Spot on!!! 
Once the system has resolved the problems of infrastructure and the basics of hot water and heating referred to above; when we have sufficient personnel to fix and service aircraft so that aviators can maintain flying currency to try and increase their competence; when we have simulators which actually represent the aircraft being flown ... then we can perhaps look at changing NOTAM to NOTA and wingman to Air System Colleague variously tinker with the Queen's English to pacify activist-minded products of the current educational system.
I know the feeling. As a Stn exec I felt that Cmd contributed little or nothing to our operation other than serving to divert us from our primary task. When I got to Cmd nothing changed my mind, We reorganised, renamed, cheese pared and spent a lot of energy running the HQ. I sometimes felt if all the units disappeared, leaving just the HQ, the grown ups would barely notice. As a small cog in the large machine I felt sometimes, very occasionally, I improved things at Stn level but as a larger (yet still relatively small) cog I don't think I contributed to achieving even one extra sortie. The battles I fought with the bean counters sometimes achieved a small win but mostly it was trying to do the same with less. It was about then disillusionment set in.