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UK F-35B Lost

Old 30th Nov 2021, 16:55
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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29Sqn will utilize a Typhoon T2 if available, and they are used for training still but nowadays a Typhoon pilot's first flight on type, he will be on his own.
At that point they are "fairly" experienced aviators but will have zero concept of when it "doesn't feel right".
I don't know the solution but can see at least part of the problem.


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Old 30th Nov 2021, 17:22
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
I seem to recall that generating that airframe and crew was the highest peacetime priority on 230?

CG
Yep - that and picking up AOC RAFG from Wegberg Strip….

i used to work in SHFHQ in the early 90s - tasking that airframe to go and sit on it’s ass all day. Walking around Güt carrying a leather bag with a pointless key on a chain, containing a signal marked UK eyes Alpha was a highlight of my career. Along with booking it in at the registry and entering the task onto BRAMIS….
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Old 30th Nov 2021, 18:03
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09 View Post
From a retired FAA pilot - who probably has contacts:
First tweet in that thread gives alleged answer to earlier questions - and some possible security questions

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Old 30th Nov 2021, 18:40
  #244 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Davef68 View Post
First tweet in that thread gives alleged answer to earlier questions - and some possible security questions

https://twitter.com/CcibChris/status...645656579?s=20
It was clear from the video yesterday when it first appeared that it had been recorded using a mobile phone from a Visual Surveillance System (VSS) workstation - probably in Flyco - you can see the large windows at the beginning of the clip along with the VSS terminal ID.

Just having a mobile phone in there is - or should be - a violation of TEMPEST protocols.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename)

The VSS comprises 220 cameras covering the entire ship - to allow monitoring of engine and machinery spaces, external catwalk, aircraft hangars, ship entrances and access to classified areas

https://www.baesystems.com/en/articl...the-first-time

Any official transfer of the video to higher HQ immediately after the accident would almost certainly have been by e-mailing the relevant file - there would be no need to use a phone to make a low resolution copy for authorized official use.

The person who first posted the video on Twitter - credited by multiple on-line aviation magazines and cable / TV outlets - claimed he received it via WhatsApp from a civilian.

So there is little doubt that there is a lot of work to do in tightening up physical and cyber security on board.
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Old 30th Nov 2021, 20:24
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Quite frankly- having retired recently as a training captain from a UK civilian jet operation and paying tax on pension income I am pissed off sponsoring flight crew (£90,000,000) who launch from a military site ,( in peacetime'ish) and have not complied with very basic airmanship.

Last edited by ALTSEL; 30th Nov 2021 at 20:28. Reason: .
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Old 30th Nov 2021, 20:50
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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“Need to Know” meets Social Media. Is anyone surprised who comes off worse?
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Old 30th Nov 2021, 20:54
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09 View Post
It was clear from the video yesterday when it first appeared that it had been recorded using a mobile phone from a Visual Surveillance System (VSS) workstation - probably in Flyco - you can see the large windows at the beginning of the clip along with the VSS terminal ID.

Just having a mobile phone in there is - or should be - a violation of TEMPEST protocols.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename)

The VSS comprises 220 cameras covering the entire ship - to allow monitoring of engine and machinery spaces, external catwalk, aircraft hangars, ship entrances and access to classified areas

https://www.baesystems.com/en/articl...the-first-time

Any official transfer of the video to higher HQ immediately after the accident would almost certainly have been by e-mailing the relevant file - there would be no need to use a phone to make a low resolution copy for authorized official use.

The person who first posted the video on Twitter - credited by multiple on-line aviation magazines and cable / TV outlets - claimed he received it via WhatsApp from a civilian.

So there is little doubt that there is a lot of work to do in tightening up physical and cyber security on board.

Yeah, it being 2021 and all it was probs an Officer. Yeet him off that boat, homs.





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Old 30th Nov 2021, 21:40
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Altsel,
Quite frankly- having retired recently as a training captain from a UK civilian jet operation and paying tax on pension income I am pissed off sponsoring flight crew (£90,000,000) who launch from a military site ,( in peacetime'ish) and have not complied with very basic airmanship.
I'm sure that RAF/Naval aircrew would love to earn 90 million pounds!
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Old 30th Nov 2021, 21:52
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ALTSEL View Post
Quite frankly- having retired recently as a training captain from a UK civilian jet operation and paying tax on pension income I am pissed off sponsoring flight crew (£90,000,000) who launch from a military site ,( in peacetime'ish) and have not complied with very basic airmanship.
May I ask which bit of "basic airmanship" has anyone failed to comply with?

If someone were to have left a spanner deep within the works, would it be the pilot's fault?

Seems to me the pilot did his best given the hand he was dealt. The most important part, he is here to tell his side of things.

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Old 1st Dec 2021, 01:37
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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"...“Then you push the throttle about halfway up the throttle slide into a detent position at about 34% engine thrust request. It sits there and you check the engine gauges: if the readings are okay you slam the throttle to either Mil or Max position and then release the brakes simultaneously. Pushing through to max is like an afterburner detent. But it’s not an afterburner – you can’t go to afterburner in mode four. “It’s a very fast acceleration. The closest we would spot from the bow is 400 feet, so about 175 feet before we would actually start rotating the aeroplane [at the STO rotation line]; so very, very quick.”..." Maj. Rusnok Test Pilot July 2014 AIR International [can't stop italics - apologies]

F-35B STO & CVF Ski Jump INFO 30NOV17 PRN pp172.pdf : http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=26013 (11Mb)
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 01:55
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Someone asked about QE ski jumpy & F-35Bs (can't find 'someone' post again). The PDF above has lots of info with this snippet in there also:
Carrier countdown 30 June 2014 Tim Robinson
“...Not your father’s ski-jump
The QE-class’s ski-jump, too, has been carefully designed and engineered from the beginning — drawing on BAE’s Harrier heritage. Says Atkinson: “We had to go back into the archives and talk to people who had actually been involved with trials with the Sea Harrier and Harrier to make sure we understood the history of ski-jump ramp development. The aircraft carrier ski-jump is a UK innovation and something the UK is very proud of.” The QEC’s ski-jump is longer (200ft) than the Invincible class (150ft) and designed so that the aircraft has all three (including the nose) wheels in contact right up until the point where the aircraft leaves the deck — giving positive nose wheel authority throughout. Additionally, the F-35Bs smart flight control system ‘knows’ when it is going up a ramp and will pre-position the control surfaces and effectors to launch at the optimum angle to avoid pitch-up or down....” http://aerosociety.com/News/Insight-...rier-countdown
_______________________________

Sea Breezes - Guy Norris -AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY/OCTOBER 26-NOVEMBER 8, 2015
"...the F-35’s automatic lift system control will make operations from the ramp simpler and safer, says Wilson [BAe Systems lead f-35B Stovl test pilot Peter “Wizzer” Wilson]. “It has become remarkably simple, thanks to the cleverness of the airplane,” he adds. For a ski jump takeoff the pilot lines up, advances the throttle and maintains alignment with the main nozzle fully aft. When the ramp is reached, rate sensors on the aircraft recognize the change in attitude and deploy the nozzles to the appropriate vectoring angle. Once airborne, weight-on-wheels sensors signal the flight control system to reconfigure the aircraft for up-and-away flight...."

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 1st Dec 2021 at 08:38. Reason: extra quote
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 08:41
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Well done MB - Again!

Originally Posted by superplum View Post
Ditto: MB did their stuff - c10secs from rockets to splash with full canopy deployed.
SP: it’s what they do..and always have done!

Tuc: Can we file this one under ‘Seaworthiness’? 😉

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Old 1st Dec 2021, 08:54
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tucumseh View Post
Bu**er the £100M. The pilot is safe. And well done Martin-Baker who, 3 years ago in court, were accused by MoD and the HSE of not understanding how their designs work. This incident made it 7662 aircrew and families who disagree.

abso - bloody - lutely!

👏

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Old 1st Dec 2021, 12:30
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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I had resisted questioning the hypothesis that an engine intake blank was missed in the preflight: from my experience which includes civil versions of military jet engines: I would expect there is FADEC on the F-35, then during start, an over temperature, EGT, would have been avoided, but it would be in the high region and doubtful the FADEC would have continued the start; typically due the lack of mass airflow the N1 and N2 speeds would rise quickly and even if this blank only caused a partial airflow blockage, the engine would undoubtedly surge (reversal of airflow) before reaching any power level to commence a take-off roll.
I propose a loss of a sensory input to the FADEC such as that normally created by forward velocity is more likely, possible some pitot type blank/plug would have limited the engine thrust during the roll; an instance I had to investigate due an aborted take-off was post a fuel control change on an RB211, the rubber gasket of a transit blank had been inadvertently missed, for a sensor pipe connection and, as the post FCU change only called for a flight idle run it was not until the aircraft started its take-off roll, that the engine failed to make take off EPR.
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 12:57
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"...designed so that the aircraft has all three (including the nose) wheels in contact right up until the point where the aircraft leaves the deck..."
Not really that important to the current debate, but I can't think of a ski jump design whereby all three wheels wouldn't be in direct contact all the way to the end of the deck.
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 13:06
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by melmothtw View Post
Not really that important to the current debate, but I can't think of a ski jump design whereby all three wheels wouldn't be in direct contact all the way to the end of the deck.
Or 4 even!

CG
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 13:22
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Er, the F-35B has three wheels.
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 13:35
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Originally Posted by melmothtw View Post
Not really that important to the current debate, but I can't think of a ski jump design whereby all three wheels wouldn't be in direct contact all the way to the end of the deck.
I guess if the aircraft starts to rotate more than the gradient of the ski jump at any point the nosewheel(s) might leave the ground? So they design to avoid that.
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 14:56
  #259 (permalink)  

 
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Pompey News (Tom Cotterill) says they've found the wreckage.
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/de...ranean-3478067

RECOVERY teams hunting for an F-35 which crashed moments after taking off from HMS Queen Elizabeth have found the wreckage of the stealth jet, MPs have been told.

top officials from the Ministry of Defence have revealed that they know the location of the £100m jet – but are in a race against time with the Russians, who are eager to secure the secretive tech inside the F-35.
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 15:58
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Spaz,

Did you feel a marked, noticeable increase in thrust between MIL and MAX and did you find that the wind up time between 35% and “full” power was a recognisable period?
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