AUKUS

[ORAC]

I can’t think of. Military jet sale in the last 50 years which didn’t have a veto on resale without authorisation in it.

[golder]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

Hmm - not the same and not a great precedent - they were all late in delivery and they got later as time went one - the last one was over 3 years late I think

And the list of problems is typical -. SSN's are much more complex and the problems (and costs) escalate likewise. Best to rent/lease if you can until you understand more about ALL the issues involved.

5 minutes on google will tell you, you are on the wrong track. With procurement, an average 6 month delay per sub, isn't a deal breaker. My point was we aren't coming to the table empty. As well as A, there is UK and US in AUKUS. It is a joint input project.

[tartare]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

TBH, Chris, as much as I am a 'bring the boys home' kind of guy, that's probably the most sensible approach. Those birds are going to be expensive.

Are they?
I thought they were on track for around US$600m per copy.
Pretty much on time and on budget was what I had read.
For arguments sake - if it was to go ahead - how many B-21s does the armchair hive mind think `straya would need?
That said, we'd have to wait in line behind the USAF...

[rattman]

Originally Posted by tartare

Are they?

The budget was something like 500 billion - for that development, 100 airframes and 30 years operational life. The development part has come in on budget (they acutally came in under but USAF scrapped the unmanned part)

[golder]

Originally Posted by tartare

Are they?
I thought they were on track for around US$600m per copy.
Pretty much on time and on budget was what I had read.
For arguments sake - if it was to go ahead - how many B-21s does the armchair hive mind think `straya would need?
That said, we'd have to wait in line behind the USAF...

US$600m flyaway, is about a A$30-45 billion procurement and sustainment for 24. So a decision, if they are officially asked and offered, is significant. Up till now there hasn't been an apatite. The F-35 with standoff munitions and other stuff, is talked about.

[tartare]

Originally Posted by golder

US$600m flyaway, is about a A$30-45 billion procurement and sustainment for 24. So a decision, if they are officially asked and offered, is significant.

Interested in the 24 number - assuming you mean notionally Australia would need 24 B-21s?
Has that number been floated somewhere?
If not - what's the rationale - thinking - we had 24 pigs, therefore replace like for like?
I wonder if a smaller number might meet needs - more advanced platform, more lethal, longer range loadout etc.

[golder]

Originally Posted by tartare

Interested in the 24 number - assuming you mean notionally Australia would need 24 B-21s?
Has that number been floated somewhere?
If not - what's the rationale - thinking - we had 24 pigs, therefore replace like for like?
I wonder if a smaller number might meet needs - more advanced platform, more lethal, longer range loadout etc.

Yes it was a squadron, a copy the F-111 number. I don't think anything has really been pushed. It was a US 'we would consider it' response to a jurno question, that kicked this off. Followed by an Aussie, everything is on the table for the review. There is really nothing public, even if they are seriously examining it. Though in the near future, I can't see us getting a bomber. There isn't even a hint in the defence budget. We have too much other stuff to do. I would be surprised come March, if a bomber was planned..

[Asturias56]

The US are planning on 100 x B-21's but given previous procurement of hi-tech (only 21 B-2's) they'll be lucky to finish up with 50 (and I'm sure the USAF thinks that way as well).

The idea that Australia could afford and field 24 is fantasy - even if Congress would allow their export.

Just give the US basing rights

[Going Boeing]

Originally Posted by golder

US$600m flyaway, is about a A$30-45 billion procurement and sustainment for 24. So a decision, if they are officially asked and offered, is significant. Up till now there hasn't been an apatite. The F-35 with standoff munitions and other stuff, is talked about.

Because the Super Hornets & Growlers perform a significant amount of the attack role, I think that a single squadron of B-21’s would be required for the long range strategic role. They are very capable aircraft so a total of 15 would be sufficient to have 10-12 serviceable each day which would achieve the required capability & deterrent.

[golder]

How many is secondary to our CONOPS, Should we get them in the first place? How do they fit into our plan and budget. Then it becomes mission and how many we need to fulfil that.

[Doors Off]

The fiscal situation in Aus, is dire! Just like the rest of the world. Highly unlikely to be any money for an aircraft that is yet to be seen, let alone that it is yet to fly.

Pretty hard to beat the strategic deterrent of Nuke Subs, packed with Precision Long Range fires and a loitering time of months. I know where I want my tax money spent.

[tartare]

In today's Australian (paywalled)
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...00375fa7445d52

Defence has been given the green light to purchase a new $155m ship to help establish a new network of undersea sensors off the nation’s coast to detect foreign submarines and autonomous underwater vehicles.
The funding for the vessel was quietly listed in Tuesday’s budget – the ship’s first official mention by the government.

So - an underwater Jindalee.
Surprised there isn't one already.
Know about the South East Asian `hook' that keeps an ear on Chinese subs and ships - and had always wondered if something like that lurked on the sea bed around our Northern reaches...

[Going Boeing]

Originally Posted by Doors Off

The fiscal situation in Aus, is dire! Just like the rest of the world. Highly unlikely to be any money for an aircraft that is yet to be seen, let alone that it is yet to fly.

Pretty hard to beat the strategic deterrent of Nuke Subs, packed with Precision Long Range fires and a loitering time of months. I know where I want my tax money spent.

I understand that the the discussion about buying B-21’s is because they believe they can be operational much earlier than the SSN’s - it’s a case of filling the capability gap as early as possible. They would have a similar stand-off capability with long range weapons as the SSN’s.

[rattman]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-...alia/101585380

possibility of a semi permanent deployment of B-52's to australia, same facilities would be usable for B-21's

[Asturias56]

Now that makes sense - move them basing south from Guam - which is now well within range of missiles

[ChrisJ800]

Originally Posted by rattman

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-...alia/101585380

possibility of a semi permanent deployment of B-52's to australia, same facilities would be usable for B-21's

good move and hope it happens soon. Im tempoarily in Philippines and hoping for more US deployments here too.

[Lookleft]

B 52s operated out of Darwin on a regular basis in the 90's. Says a lot more about the longevity of the airframe than the current geo-political situation. There is one in a museum at Darwin Airport after they stopped coming here as a memento of its service. If it could talk it would say "I'll be back!"

[BBadanov]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

B 52s operated out of Darwin on a regular basis in the 90's. Says a lot more about the longevity of the airframe than the current geo-political situation. There is one in a museum at Darwin Airport after they stopped coming here as a memento of its service. If it could talk it would say "I'll be back!"

It will be interesting to see if bits go missing as spares.

[Asturias56]

Remembering the Vulcan refuelling probe at Wright-Patterson in the Falkland's War you may be correct!

[ORAC]

Skins, tails, wiring, instruments, radar, engines - even fatigue lifted structural parts - all replaced. Not sure what would be usable from an old aircraft.

The B-52 is a bit like Trigger’s broom…

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...he-rivets-out/