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AUKUS

Old 23rd May 2022, 18:26
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Treachery didn't bring luck to this gentleman Morrison. He will not be missed.
Now PM Albanese will have to acknowledge that there will be no subs at all for the next 10 years.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 20:01
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Terminating a contract in accordance with that contract at a break point which was in the contract can hardly be fairly described as treachery.

N
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Old 23rd May 2022, 21:09
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Originally Posted by ORAC
The problem being France only produces a LEU reactor, not HEU, bringing us back to the need to refuel every 5 years and being dependent on France for refuelling - which is not an acceptable risk.

If you want a sub with a reactor fuelled for its service life you need HEU, which leads you back to US/UK reactor design and supply - even if the rest of the sub is built in Australia.

Its worse than that, if that just the problem that could be lived with. The issue lays with the NPT. France giving AUS reactor technology would straight up be a breech of the NPT and open australia and france to international sanctions. Thats the reason why brazil is having to design and construct its own reactors and not just use french reactors in a french submarine. So while I think a nuclear barracuda was the butter zone size sub for us, it was never going to happen

My take has always been virginia to expensive, needs to many crew and is just to much sub for us, astute no VLS. I think a 3rd option of either the new SSN(X) or some form of bespoke "regional sub" for countries like australia and possibly SK, Japan or india in the asian pacific or italy, germany or other europeans
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Old 24th May 2022, 07:03
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Originally Posted by JeanKhul
Treachery didn't bring luck to this gentleman Morrison. He will not be missed.
Now PM Albanese will have to acknowledge that there will be no subs at all for the next 10 years.
What part of this is so hard to understand? Isn't 7 months notice enough?
February 2021.
https://indaily.com.au/news/2021/02/...y-february-25/
Prime Minister Scott Morrison has ordered a high-level study level to determine how to terminate the $90 billion contract, while considering the alternative options of contracting Swedish shipbuilder Saab Kockums or refurbishing the Australian Navy's current Collins-class fleet.

Last edited by golder; 24th May 2022 at 07:15.
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Old 24th May 2022, 16:24
  #905 (permalink)  
 
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"I think a 3rd option of either the new SSN(X) or some form of bespoke "regional sub" for countries like australia and possibly SK, Japan or india"

Problem is in the execution - the UK, USA & France have been building SSN's etc for nearly 70 years and they ALL have problems with every new design

trying to build up expertise from scratch is a very long and incredibly expensive road - and there's absolutely no point in building something that's as good as the USN Nautilus in 2030 - you have to be close to world standard from the start. Buy or rent the first few boats
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Old 24th May 2022, 19:44
  #906 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rattman
astute no VLS.
I've long considered the lack of VLS on Astute class to be a major short sighted design flaw as you're stuck with only horizontal launch weapons. Interesting to note that the RAN and RN are talking to Raytheon about reopening the TTL Tomahawk production line to remain relevant in the land attack role.
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Old 29th May 2022, 11:20
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Kinda AUKUS related

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/st...e-to-australia

We now will have something to shoot PrSM from
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Old 29th May 2022, 12:44
  #908 (permalink)  
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Back in the day, the boats that were a pain to track were the SS/SSKs, Nukuler boats were decidedly easier, but they have improved the radiated noise of the SSN/SSGN/SSBNs.... Still, the thing with subs is they are disruptive even when their presence is just unknown. Between nuke and fuel cell, I'd still go conventional, but it just doesn't have the same headline appeal to pollies. Aussie needs a substantial fleet of boats, either flavor, but numbers are needed IMHO.

Out in the boonies one day tracking a Victor-III (wiktor.. for trekkues...) our engineer in the center lounge chair spills his coffee pointing out an attack periscope of decidedly non-Russian plumage.... As the mission green had decidedly no friendly boats in the intel, we spent the next 3 hours pinging the stuffing out of the boat, along with passive tracking. Debriefing included a surprise visit by a pretty unhappy foreign military attache flown in at short notice, explaining the presence of their nuke. FWIW, it was definitely quieter than the "Wiktor" , which was pretty confused by the activity around his baffles. ASW/ISR had its moments.

"Dolphin 22"

(22. Submarines never cheat and rarely lie.)
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Old 29th May 2022, 22:58
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Originally Posted by fdr
Back in the day, the boats that were a pain to track were the SS/SSKs, Nukuler boats were decidedly easier, but they have improved the radiated noise of the SSN/SSGN/SSBNs.... Still, the thing with subs is they are disruptive even when their presence is just unknown. Between nuke and fuel cell, I'd still go conventional, but it just doesn't have the same headline appeal to pollies. Aussie needs a substantial fleet of boats, either flavor, but numbers are needed IMHO.
The ďtrack-abilityĒ of SSNís has got significantly more difficult with modern reactors that use convective cooling which means the coolant pumps only operate when high power/speed is required. The Virginia classí S9G reactor and the new RR PWR3 have this capability (not the PWR2). There are a number of other new technologies, such as Shaftless Submarine Drive (SSD) being developed so we are now getting to the stage where they are much more difficult to detect and track than conventional submarines. The USS South Dakota was built with a lot of new technologies (which arenít discussed publicly) and, if they prove to be successful, they will be included in the Block 5 Virginiaís & subsequent submarines.

These developments are making the technology in the Astute class look outdated and the lack of vertical payload tubes means that they would not be able to keep pace with weapon & UUV developments throughout their service life.

Last edited by Going Boeing; 30th May 2022 at 02:38.
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Old 30th May 2022, 05:23
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Part of Biden's accession to AUKUS and sharing the technology was a guarantee of bi-partisan, long term commitment.
I'd wager you won't see any change from the Albanese administration.
And I personally hope they opt for the Virginia class - for the reasons explained above.
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Old 30th May 2022, 07:14
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Between nuke and fuel cell, I'd still go conventional
Wouldn’t you need to know the mission before you make the decision?
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Old 1st Jun 2022, 02:29
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Interesting piece on ABC here last night about retired submariners calling for an interim `son of Collins' class to be built before the nuke boats - to fill the `submarine gap' between now and the nuke boats arriving in the 2040s.
Not a lot of discussion about these or similar as an interim stop gap?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...inelayer-first
Am assuming large UUVs will develop and evolve enormously over the next 20 years.
Much cheaper than a crewed boat I would have thought?
Oz may even be able to build it's own...

Navy requirements indicate the UUV will also perform underwater surveillance, electronic warfare, and minesweeping missions. Beyond that, it is planned for Orca to be able to do everything from launching cruise missiles and aerial drones to hunting submarines in the future.
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Old 1st Jun 2022, 02:48
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There are so many factors involved with the selection and subsequent construction of the RANís SSNís, one of them is what steel is to be used in the pressure hull. Obviously, strength is the primary consideration but there are a number of other factors such as corrosion resistance, reduced magnetic field disturbance, etc and DST has been involved in the research to find the optimum steel alloy as part of the planned Attack class build process. According to this Australian Defence article, Bissalloy delivered 250 tonnes of a moly steel that had been found to have the best balance of properties for prototyping work before the Attack class was cancelled. Bissalloy had been involved (with Bluescope) in the development and supply of the steel used in construction of the Collins class which has proven to meet all the requirements, including longevity with the imminent Life of Type Extension (LOTE).

Now that the focus has switched to the future SSNís, the selection of steel takes on another dimension. The Astute class is manufactured from British Q1N grade steel which has similar strength to the HY80 used in the Los Angeles class and the Virginia class has HY100 steel which is stronger but is difficult to weld and requires special welding techniques. The BIS812EMA steel used in the Collins is a little bit stronger (including bulge testing) than HY100 and has a lot of improved properties, including being lighter and easier to weld. An advanced version of this would make a good choice for the SSNís but then creates more design decisions as itís slightly lighter and thus affects the ballast requirements of the vessels. It could also cause more complex issues if sections of the vessel have to be constructed overseas, eg, if the Virginia class is chosen and it was decided that the hull section containing the reactor compartment is to be manufactured in the US, would a section made from HY100 be able to be welded to hull sections made from a different steel, or would the Bissalloy steel have to be shipped to the US for use in their construction of the reactor hull section? This would require them to adjust to different handling and welding techniques from those currently in use.

When people scoff at the idea of local steel being used instead of the OE steel, the US discovered that substandard steel was used for building Navy submarines between 1985 and 2017, a problem that investigators discovered in 2017 and that was first reported in 2020 so, we would be able to better manage quality control of the steel locally.

The following table gives an indication of steels used in submarine construction.


Table courtesy of Submarine Matters

Last edited by Going Boeing; 4th Jun 2022 at 00:32.
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Old 1st Jun 2022, 02:52
  #914 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tartare
Interesting piece on ABC here last night about retired submariners calling for an interim `son of Collins' class to be built before the nuke boats - to fill the `submarine gap' between now and the nuke boats arriving in the 2040s.
Not a lot of discussion about these or similar as an interim stop gap?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...inelayer-first
Am assuming large UUVs will develop and evolve enormously over the next 20 years.
Much cheaper than a crewed boat I would have thought?
Oz may even be able to build it's own...

Navy requirements indicate the UUV will also perform underwater surveillance, electronic warfare, and minesweeping missions. Beyond that, it is planned for Orca to be able to do everything from launching cruise missiles and aerial drones to hunting submarines in the future.
I totally agree.

Developing a “Son of Collins” would divert resources and funds from the SSN program so it makes sense to augment the Collins with high capability UUV’s with much lower acquisition and operating costs.

In fact, they’ve already started buying some with 3 ordered from Anduril. It will be interesting to see if they are sized to fit on the aft deck of the Collins or will operate autonomously from their base.

Anduril Autonomous Submarines
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Old 1st Jun 2022, 04:29
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Originally Posted by tartare
I'd wager you won't see any change from the Albanese administration.
What you don't think they'd consider a Chinese design?
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Old 1st Jun 2022, 04:41
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Originally Posted by SRFred
What you don't think they'd consider a Chinese design?
The new Minister for Defence (and Deputy Chairman of Australia) Richard Marles MP, is a deft hand at visiting and negotiating with the parent committee in the CCCP, so we should get a good deal on the Chinese subs. He was an odd pick for Minister of Defence.
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Old 1st Jun 2022, 08:23
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Funny - I thought I was on the Military aircrew forum - and not Jet Blast, or that pit of acid Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific?
Hey ho...
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Old 1st Jun 2022, 08:33
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Originally Posted by Doors Off
The new Minister for Defence (and Deputy Chairman of Australia) Richard Marles MP, is a deft hand at visiting and negotiating with the parent committee in the CCCP, so we should get a good deal on the Chinese subs. He was an odd pick for Minister of Defence.
That is inconsistent with the AFR views from wiki
"The 12 Labor figures who will do the heavy lifting in government". The Australian Financial Review. 14 December 2018. Retrieved 22 December 2019. Marles is very pro-US and a touch hawkish on China
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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 07:13
  #919 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting development in the region - and related:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...ign-for-k-ssn/
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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 10:29
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Originally Posted by tartare
Interesting development in the region - and related:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...ign-for-k-ssn/
Yep been saying since day dot, that a smaller regional SSN for australia, south korea and possibly Japan might well be a better longer term plan. Maybe even some europeans as well
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