ATC - Adult Helper
I think cadets flying in fast jets is pretty much a thing of the past. Its just another one of those activities which is a health and safety nightmare for HQAC, and has subsquently been turned into a paperwork/red tape/ hoop jumping minefield for staff.
The organisation has become so risk adverse, that anything mildly exciting has been banned/made impossible to run. Afterall, no activities = no accidents = medals all round! Doesn't matter that staff and cadet numbers are reducing, at least there is no bad publicity from a sprained ankle!
The organisation has become so risk adverse, that anything mildly exciting has been banned/made impossible to run. Afterall, no activities = no accidents = medals all round! Doesn't matter that staff and cadet numbers are reducing, at least there is no bad publicity from a sprained ankle!
I bagged a Harrier back seat trip when a Puma crewman at Gutersloh. Yay for me! Looking back- qualified, sensible aircrew bloke gets a 6-7 minute rundown on ejection and off we go.Later, I became an instructor at 6FTS, and taught abandonment drills to baby navs going onto the JP. Which I had never been near! I've looked back often on that trip, the memory of which I treasure, and wonder how I'd have fared if push came to bang. Maybe leave the Cadets to helicopters and Hercs (for a short while longer).
CG
What I found when I volunteered as a service helper was that staff members with no actual service felt very threatened by those who did. I found that really odd and left as a result....
That's exactly how I felt when I pitched up to show interest in being one. The sqn boss really didn't want a former aircrew member telling his boys and girls actual real boring war stories lol! It went nowhere from there. I should have persisted perhaps.
CG
Sky sports,
I'd agree with your comment about the organisation being risk averse. We had a large town common within yards of our unit HQ and for years used it for night exercises. This all came to an end, as we had nobody qualified as a mountain leader (or other such phrase, sorry the grey cells grow old,) Thus, no nightex. Very sad as the cadets used to love them, all carried out in perfect safety.
I never found out who decided on this - just 'higher authority'.
As for adult uniformed staff, I'll agree that one or two did join for the glamour of wearing the uniform. In my limited experience, the majority were in it to help the cadets florish.
I'd agree with your comment about the organisation being risk averse. We had a large town common within yards of our unit HQ and for years used it for night exercises. This all came to an end, as we had nobody qualified as a mountain leader (or other such phrase, sorry the grey cells grow old,) Thus, no nightex. Very sad as the cadets used to love them, all carried out in perfect safety.
I never found out who decided on this - just 'higher authority'.
As for adult uniformed staff, I'll agree that one or two did join for the glamour of wearing the uniform. In my limited experience, the majority were in it to help the cadets florish.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies everyone. I’ve contacted the Sqn where I want to help out. They seem interested. I’ll start out part time as and when I’m available and do full time when I leave the service.
When I allocated the JP flight at Cranwell it was my decision, based on merit (I discussed it with other adult staff) and no it wasn't one of my cadets and yes I would have loved to get a JP in my logbook but as I said, the flight was specifically for a cadet, not adult staff.
That same camp I'd already had a run-in with the Wing PRO who wanted me to fly female cadets first in the Chipmunks so he could take piccies; I said no, those cadets who haven't flown before in anything go first just in case the weather closes in.
Last edited by chevvron; 15th Apr 2021 at 16:21.
I find his attitude pretty disgusting, the cadets should always come first when it comes to flights and it shouldn't matter if a cadet who is not one of yours got the flight; only if NO cadets at all could take the flight should adult staff take it instead.
When I allocated the JP flight at Cranwell it was my decision, based on merit (I discussed it with other adult staff) and no it wasn't one of my cadets.
When I allocated the JP flight at Cranwell it was my decision, based on merit (I discussed it with other adult staff) and no it wasn't one of my cadets.
We had a large town common within yards of our unit HQ and for years used it for night exercises. This all came to an end, as we had nobody qualified as a mountain leader (or other such phrase, sorry the grey cells grow old,) Thus, no nightex.
IMO, it won't be long before drill is banned as well. It'll only take one cadet to faint on parade, injure themselves on the way down.
What I found in my very short time as a member of a Squadron Civilian Committee (1.5 years) was a basic lack of honesty from some of the uniformed staff as they rose up the promotion chain. Some of them think they are still in the RAF and are running a junior air force where everybody jumps at their rantings and don't actually like it when they are challenged by a civilian.
Conversely there are some very good people at Squadron level and I worked with them as a CI in the 80s and 90s. The cadets came first, flying, shooting etc if it was avaialble they got it, staff just enabled them too get there. Annual camps In the early 80s had cadets working on sections. We had cadets doing nights with the RAF police on patrol, marshalling Hawks at Valley and doing AF and BF checks under close supervision of the lineys, even cadets up out of bed at 05:00 on the dispersals at Waddington stood under Vulcans during start up and see off to go to the US.Going shooting at our local army training camp and booking out after training of SLRs and LMGs from our own now ARC and taking them there in a car at the height of the PIRA threat and teaching PARAs how to use a Lee Enfield .303. cadets at places like Lyneham moving from one aircraft to another to keep flying all day or Finningley in Dominies and Jetstream on nav exs.
Those sort of days will never return, the 'management' would never allow it. They were the good times.
Conversely there are some very good people at Squadron level and I worked with them as a CI in the 80s and 90s. The cadets came first, flying, shooting etc if it was avaialble they got it, staff just enabled them too get there. Annual camps In the early 80s had cadets working on sections. We had cadets doing nights with the RAF police on patrol, marshalling Hawks at Valley and doing AF and BF checks under close supervision of the lineys, even cadets up out of bed at 05:00 on the dispersals at Waddington stood under Vulcans during start up and see off to go to the US.Going shooting at our local army training camp and booking out after training of SLRs and LMGs from our own now ARC and taking them there in a car at the height of the PIRA threat and teaching PARAs how to use a Lee Enfield .303. cadets at places like Lyneham moving from one aircraft to another to keep flying all day or Finningley in Dominies and Jetstream on nav exs.
Those sort of days will never return, the 'management' would never allow it. They were the good times.
Last edited by air pig; 15th Apr 2021 at 19:47.
I joined the ATC at 14 in Feb 58 and moved to adult service at 19. On leaving regular service, I first became a CI and then was recommissioned in the RAFVR(T) at a school CCF. During that time, I was also employed as a Wing Admin Officer for several years.
There were many things wrong with the air cadets but on the plus side there were huge incentives - I never tired of seeing the smile on a cadet's face after their first AEF flight etc. Furthermore, several commandants started to expand what the cadets could do and align some of the stuff with civilian qualifications. Unfortunately, things became too risk averse but having coped with the the LGB in LGBT, I could not accept the 'T' bit, as I viewed this as possibly being complicit in drugs and possible surgery, which was irreversible. Furthermore, I discovered that some 45 % of under 25s who had 'reassigned' their gender, had also attempted suicide. I judged this as indicating much deeper emotional issues and there were practical issues re camps and accommodation. As I could not support the transgender policies, the only honourable thing to do was resign and a few months before I would have received another clasp to my Cadet Forces Medal (CFM), of which I am enormously proud, I did so. The letter I received from HQ Air Cadets acknowledging my service was fairly close to: 'Dear Sir or Madam'.
I believe, nonetheless, that the air cadets is one of the best youth organisations in the country - if not the best. Unfortunately, the politics and risk aversion require some skill to be navigated safely and the complaints procedure is awful, often used to challenge orders with which one does not agree.
Old Duffer
There were many things wrong with the air cadets but on the plus side there were huge incentives - I never tired of seeing the smile on a cadet's face after their first AEF flight etc. Furthermore, several commandants started to expand what the cadets could do and align some of the stuff with civilian qualifications. Unfortunately, things became too risk averse but having coped with the the LGB in LGBT, I could not accept the 'T' bit, as I viewed this as possibly being complicit in drugs and possible surgery, which was irreversible. Furthermore, I discovered that some 45 % of under 25s who had 'reassigned' their gender, had also attempted suicide. I judged this as indicating much deeper emotional issues and there were practical issues re camps and accommodation. As I could not support the transgender policies, the only honourable thing to do was resign and a few months before I would have received another clasp to my Cadet Forces Medal (CFM), of which I am enormously proud, I did so. The letter I received from HQ Air Cadets acknowledging my service was fairly close to: 'Dear Sir or Madam'.
I believe, nonetheless, that the air cadets is one of the best youth organisations in the country - if not the best. Unfortunately, the politics and risk aversion require some skill to be navigated safely and the complaints procedure is awful, often used to challenge orders with which one does not agree.
Old Duffer
Gentleman Aviator
Old-Duffer
You speak - as always - much that is wise and all that is the truth. I agree with much of what you say and admire your stance on a point of principle; it is irrelevant whether or not I agree with you. ("I may not agree with what you say.....")
You will know that I was (and still am) involved with the Air Cadet Organisation; my view is that most problems stem from two not disconnected strands: risk aversion and a lack of connection with the "front line" where the work is done. I can call on many anecdotes illustrating this - as I am sure can you - but will content myself here with four.
1. At the time of the volcanic dust cloud from the Icelandic volcano with the unpronouncable name, there was a pause (before THE PAUSE) in all glider flying, because of concerns on dust effects on aero engines. But that pause included the winch-launched Viking. Er.......
2. DBS clearance is quite correctly required for those dealing with young people, and the requirement was equally correctly extended to Staff Cadets (aged 18+) who are legally adults. However, the DBS requirement is for those who have regular and unsupervised access to young people (my italics). This was in many cases interpreted (don't recall whether it was HQAC policy) as no access at all. So the potential CI, having signed all the paperwork, was (in many cases at least) effectively banned from the Squadron until the clearances arrived - and we know how long that could be. Many didn't bother to wait.
Now my personal favourites
3. The first concerns required staff/cadet ratios for activities. I forget the exact figures, but the requirement was increased if the activity was above a certain height amsl. However, some Squadrons in Wales and Scotland had their bases above that height, and by the letter of the law would have needed to increase the ratios outside their own front door.
4. And finally, one about rank. I knew of a squadron officer in the rank of Flt Lt who was appointed as a Wing Staff Officer (very part time for some activity or other) which carried the (unpaid) rank of Sqn Ldr, with potential embarrassment for the OC when on the Sqn. HQAC's initial solution? "Couldn't they be a Flt Lt on the Squadron and only wear Sqn Ldr rank when on Wing Staff duties.......?" !!!
But all that said, the spirit is still very much there in very many places - and that "first flight grin" still inspires whenever I see it.
You speak - as always - much that is wise and all that is the truth. I agree with much of what you say and admire your stance on a point of principle; it is irrelevant whether or not I agree with you. ("I may not agree with what you say.....")
You will know that I was (and still am) involved with the Air Cadet Organisation; my view is that most problems stem from two not disconnected strands: risk aversion and a lack of connection with the "front line" where the work is done. I can call on many anecdotes illustrating this - as I am sure can you - but will content myself here with four.
1. At the time of the volcanic dust cloud from the Icelandic volcano with the unpronouncable name, there was a pause (before THE PAUSE) in all glider flying, because of concerns on dust effects on aero engines. But that pause included the winch-launched Viking. Er.......
2. DBS clearance is quite correctly required for those dealing with young people, and the requirement was equally correctly extended to Staff Cadets (aged 18+) who are legally adults. However, the DBS requirement is for those who have regular and unsupervised access to young people (my italics). This was in many cases interpreted (don't recall whether it was HQAC policy) as no access at all. So the potential CI, having signed all the paperwork, was (in many cases at least) effectively banned from the Squadron until the clearances arrived - and we know how long that could be. Many didn't bother to wait.
Now my personal favourites
3. The first concerns required staff/cadet ratios for activities. I forget the exact figures, but the requirement was increased if the activity was above a certain height amsl. However, some Squadrons in Wales and Scotland had their bases above that height, and by the letter of the law would have needed to increase the ratios outside their own front door.
4. And finally, one about rank. I knew of a squadron officer in the rank of Flt Lt who was appointed as a Wing Staff Officer (very part time for some activity or other) which carried the (unpaid) rank of Sqn Ldr, with potential embarrassment for the OC when on the Sqn. HQAC's initial solution? "Couldn't they be a Flt Lt on the Squadron and only wear Sqn Ldr rank when on Wing Staff duties.......?" !!!
But all that said, the spirit is still very much there in very many places - and that "first flight grin" still inspires whenever I see it.
2. DBS clearance is quite correctly required for those dealing with young people, and the requirement was equally correctly extended to Staff Cadets (aged 18+) who are legally adults. However, the DBS requirement is for those who have regular and unsupervised access to young people (my italics). This was in many cases interpreted (don't recall whether it was HQAC policy) as no access at all. So the potential CI, having signed all the paperwork, was (in many cases at least) effectively banned from the Squadron until the clearances arrived - and we know how long that could be. Many didn't bother to wait.
Back on topic, I've just started investigating whether my gliding club can do something with oneof the local ATC squadrons. Feedback from those who've tried it before is along the lines of "Definitely investigate, would be great if we can get some cadets flying, but don't be surprised if you get push-back from someone senior, for unspecified military reasons". Certainly, all the Air Cadets I know at civilian gliding clubs got into the sport through their own/parents' initiative rather than via the ATC; it's effectively a parallel activity for them. That's great, and good on them for having the initiative, but there must be more than a few less-outgoing individuals who are missing out...
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Unfortunately, at a Sqn level, your previous aviation experience is actually more of a problem than asset. As has been stated elsewhere in the thread, many see it as a way of getting what they couldn't in the "real" Air Force and so build mini empires. As a former ex regular GD/P I have now been involved in the Air Cadets as initially a RAFVR(T) officer (a "proper" Commission) and now RAFAC (waste of paper) for 33 years. I continue to find that the empire builders (a few officers but mostly the senior non coms) really do not like ex regular officers and continually try to scent mark me. With the general decline in flying over the years it has become the Royal Adventure Training and Drill Force and occassionaly Air Cadets. These Walters (and you can see in their Facebook page that they think they are regular WOs!) do not like the fact that Pilots are taught to think differently from some grunt on a drill square, and the number of arguments I have had about whether I can wear my Forage Cap or leather jacket (which I can under both AP1368 and AP1358C) are too many.
If you are still flying then a much better bet is either the AEF's on the Grob (when they fix their little rudder problem) or the VGS gliders -flying units with the right attitude. If not flying then maybe one of the newish AGS units which use synthetic PTT to prepare the cadets for the future flying.
I will also back up everything that Teeteringhead and Air Pig say. If you go to a Sqn you might hit lucky with the staff, but expect some dislike of your wealth of experience somewhere in the chain!
If you are still flying then a much better bet is either the AEF's on the Grob (when they fix their little rudder problem) or the VGS gliders -flying units with the right attitude. If not flying then maybe one of the newish AGS units which use synthetic PTT to prepare the cadets for the future flying.
I will also back up everything that Teeteringhead and Air Pig say. If you go to a Sqn you might hit lucky with the staff, but expect some dislike of your wealth of experience somewhere in the chain!
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This happens all over the place. I need a DBS clearance to be treasurer of my local scout group. When Scout HQ screwed up the paperwork, causing my clearance to be delayed, I received a snotty letter from some senior so-and-so, forbidding me from performing any part of my role, including attending committee meetings.
I've also had someone wo was a Sqn OC shout at me as a CI in a hangar in front of Cadets and other staff because my OC requested changes to a pick up route for the bus for an activity and there were problems as a result, as if it was all my fault that WG HQ messed up - I quickly defaulted back into an Ex-SNCO with 23 years in the real air force and put them back in their box where they stood.
Once in and everything running it's enjoyable and good seeing the cadets grow and expand their experiences, the BS that comes with it all can get a bit much at times.
I've also had someone wo was a Sqn OC shout at me as a CI in a hangar in front of Cadets and other staff because my OC requested changes to a pick up route for the bus for an activity and there were problems as a result, as if it was all my fault that WG HQ messed up - I quickly defaulted back into an Ex-SNCO with 23 years in the real air force and put them back in their box where they stood
Some insights here that probably point to some individuals' motivations: https://forum.aircadetcentral.net/t/...e-salutes/4741 (Concern about whether RAFAC Officers should be saluted or not!)
