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Canadian Forces Snowbirds CT-114 down in British Columbia

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Canadian Forces Snowbirds CT-114 down in British Columbia

Old 18th May 2020, 14:35
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TBM-Legend View Post
RAAF Macchi's used to practice EFATO turn backs all the time in my day. I'm not aware that there was ever any crashes from this practice. To me it looks like an EFATO with the speed to height and maybe just got too slow for the turnback, stalled and sadly the end...
I wonder how many turn backs occurred for real (genuine question/curiosity), and also what the height gates for them were in the Macchi. CFS is still teaching turn backs in the PC-21; but with a gate height a lot higher than what was shown in the video. Not to say what's right or wrong, I don't have the experience.

Another thing that is I guess at a glance unique is that the Tutor is not in current active service in the RCAF, unlike flying something like the T-6 or the Hawk (or PC-21/9 in the RAAF) which pilots would have been trained to fly on pilots course, FIC, while at the schools etc. The only Tutor time the crew have is time the pilots presumably have as part of the team; not through any other posting or tour.
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Old 18th May 2020, 14:39
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Does the Tutor engine have a chip detector?
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Old 18th May 2020, 14:39
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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I'm surprised that a straight ahead climb followed by an ejection wasn't selected. A turn back from that altitude looks impossible to me. Surely such a calculation is routine for every single engine jet takeoff in a military aircraft?

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Old 18th May 2020, 14:44
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Why would they pull up like that after what seems a normal TO?
  • They planned (or ad hoc decided to do) an aerobatic maneuver which ended badly
  • Somatogravic illusion
  • Technical problems (control surface, engine,...)
  • Health issue (anything from a bee i the cockpit to something else)
  • Cockpit management (e.g. PNF took control, made a mistake in the process)
  • Trading speed for height in order to eject
  • CoG issue (doesn't seem like it)
  • ?

    It's impossible to say which is true. But they did indeed climb, stall(?), bank so that the cockpit was pointing towards the sky and eject. Could as well be a planned ejection, with an unfortunate outcome.

Last edited by derjodel; 18th May 2020 at 19:18.
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Old 18th May 2020, 14:46
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Probably turning away from the city/river/mountains. Take a look at google earth, its been ages since i flew in there but theres not many places to go to. i dont think he was trying to make the airfield.
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Old 18th May 2020, 15:02
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Was the video taken from here, across the road?
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Old 18th May 2020, 15:06
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wanderinwilco View Post
I was taught you never attempt a turnback from an engine failure after takeoff. Have things changed?
I had a look at Google Maps of the area around CYKA. An engine failure on takeoff leaves you with the choices of a Domtar pulp & paper mill on the south side of the river, or residential neighbourhoods on the north (and the river straight ahead). None of those options seem particularly good. Perhaps the pilot was at least trying to turn towards the northwest where there's a bit of open space near the airport as well as the golf course.
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Old 18th May 2020, 15:09
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So to be clear, the Snowbirds don't fly practice EFATO PFLs? If not surely they must brief to only leave above a certain height and speed, not start turning.

All very odd; jet enters what looks like an uncoordinated turn, spins to the right through a full rotation, and seems to briefly (self?) stabilise as the crew leave. No smoke, flame or debris from the jetpipe before the pull-up, no change in engine note that I can hear.
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Old 18th May 2020, 15:12
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TBM-Legend View Post
RAAF Macchi's used to practice EFATO turn backs all the time in my day. I'm not aware that there was ever any crashes from this practice. To me it looks like an EFATO with the speed to height and maybe just got too slow for the turnback, stalled and sadly the end...
But presumably this training was for conventional single ship take-offs and climb out where you would have had more height to play with (and more awareness of your options) albeit probably less speed?

I guess the investigation will establish whether he could have made the turn if he kept lower/faster, or at least got the a/c pointing back at the airfield or some open space and given him and his PAX a better chance of a survivable ejection. So very sad.
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Old 18th May 2020, 15:41
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Originally Posted by metro301 View Post
At 10 seconds on the second linked video. Double pop later for both ejection seats. I had ear buds in when I heard it.
I can hear it, a muffled pop @ :09-10sec. It could also be a car door in the background but it engine trouble is highly suspect.
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Old 18th May 2020, 18:20
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From PM Trudeau:






Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
It is not unusual for the majority of the Snowbirds team to be from non-FJ backgrounds. The RCAF is also very short on FJ pilots as it is.
In this case the pilot came from the C-130 community:

After getting his degree in 2009, he entered flight training in Moose Jaw, Sask. in 2010 and got his wings in Portage La Prairie, Man. in 2011 and began flying the C-130 Hercules in operations around the world from 2011 to 2017, including an air-to-air refuelling role with CF-18s.“They had to send one guy to Moose Jaw (the home base of the Snowbirds) and my name came up to teach at the school. I taught on the Harvard-2 aircraft for two years,” he said. “It is very much a lead into doing the Snowbirds. By being on base I was asked to try out and went through the process.”

MacDougall joined the Snowbirds last August and said it’s a tremendous honour.
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/ne...lle-nb-448287/

Last edited by Airbubba; 18th May 2020 at 19:26.
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Old 18th May 2020, 18:37
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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I just listened to a podcast interview with a former Snowbirds CO, and one of the things he mentioned is the lack of luggage space in the Tutor.
Looking at the picture of Capt. Casey in the Tutor there seems to be a duffel bag stuffed on top of her seat. I have seen pics of F-16s with a bag behind the seat, and an F-15E with a big duffel on top of the WSO instrument panel. Could this bag, if present during the flight, have interfered with the proper seat functioning?

Ken
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Old 18th May 2020, 18:49
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TIMTS View Post
I just listened to a podcast interview with a former Snowbirds CO, and one of the things he mentioned is the lack of luggage space in the Tutor.
Looking at the picture of Capt. Casey in the Tutor there seems to be a duffel bag stuffed on top of her seat. I have seen pics of F-16s with a bag behind the seat, and an F-15E with a big duffel on top of the WSO instrument panel. Could this bag, if present during the flight, have interfered with the proper seat functioning?

Ken
Worryingly the other seat seems to have a bag there as well as does the aircraft behind. Certainly there's a dark shape atop the seat.
I do see a headset beneath the bag though so perhaps this is 'remove before flight' stowage?
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Old 18th May 2020, 18:59
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I would expect a "remove before flight item" to be red (or other bright) color, but there are more knowledgable folks here to comment on that.
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Old 18th May 2020, 19:00
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TIMTS View Post
I just listened to a podcast interview with a former Snowbirds CO, and one of the things he mentioned is the lack of luggage space in the Tutor.
Looking at the picture of Capt. Casey in the Tutor there seems to be a duffel bag stuffed on top of her seat. I have seen pics of F-16s with a bag behind the seat, and an F-15E with a big duffel on top of the WSO instrument panel. Could this bag, if present during the flight, have interfered with the proper seat functioning?

Ken
Is this the seat? http://www.ejectionsite.com/ct114seat.htm
Look at the side view, there's an arm with a drogue parachute, which at some point extends right where the bag is. If my life depended on it I would certainly not want an object on top of this design!


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Old 18th May 2020, 19:02
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by geo10 View Post
I would expect a "remove before flight item" to be red (or other bright) color, but there are more knowledgable folks here to comment on that.
Yeah, I didn't mean a purpose made cover etc, just an ad hoc item in a handy place whilst they're on the ground.
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Old 18th May 2020, 19:04
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Seen.

That's an awful lot of 'remove before ...'.
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Old 18th May 2020, 19:12
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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I think they definitely fly with the bags there! Look at this site: https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4...kes?artslide=5

Look at the first picture: bags on the wings.
Second picture, I'm fairly sure it's the same bag on the seat.
That space is empty when they do shows (picture 3)




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Old 18th May 2020, 20:12
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TIMTS View Post
I just listened to a podcast interview with a former Snowbirds CO, and one of the things he mentioned is the lack of luggage space in the Tutor.
Looking at the picture of Capt. Casey in the Tutor there seems to be a duffel bag stuffed on top of her seat.
It sure does look like a duffel bag of some sort rather than a seat cover. I just found a higher resolution version of the original picture and put it into the post above. From some of the file names it looks like this picture may have been taken in July 2019.

A friend who flew with the Blue Angels in the early 1990's said they had a mechanical over the North Pacific and diverted into Cold Bay, Alaska. Many of us have used PACD for an ETOPS alternate on the NOPAC routes. I've never been there myself (except in the simulator).

The hospitality was warm and when the team got things patched up and they were ready to leave the pilots were all given huge frozen fish as a traditional native honor. I guess the C-130 was already in ANC so they put the fish in the cockpit and bent them somewhat to fit into the canopy. My friend did express some concern that an ejection with a fish on top might not go as planned.
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Old 18th May 2020, 20:15
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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A cursory search on Google images would indicate they routinely fly with an overnight bag on top of the seat...🤔
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