Canadian Forces Snowbirds CT-114 down in British Columbia
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Location: with bosun Blue Sky and the jenny haniver "Hot Stuff"
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
It sure does look like a duffel bag of some sort rather than a seat cover. I just found a higher resolution version of the original picture and put it into the post above. From some of the file names it looks like this picture may have been taken in July 2019.
Bloody hell if true - I wonder if there's a Safety Case for it - normalisation of deviance? RIP.
Originally Posted by ASRAAMTOO
So the question is, did the seats work as specified? In which case they are probably not suitable for use in the "high risk" environment of a formation display team.
AP based solid rocket propellant is very stable and stores quite well (in my amateur rocketry activities I've successfully used AP propellant reloads that were 20+ years old), with one exception:
It can become very difficult to ignite. A layer of oxide often forms on the exposed surfaces which interferes with the ability of the igniter pyrogen to ignite the propellant. This can result in one or more of what we call a 'chuff'' where the propellant partially ignites (resulting in a 'chuff' of exhaust), then a pause while the chamber pressure/temp come back up and either it 'chuffs' again or it properly ignites.
Perhaps an decades old ejection seat rocket motor didn't light cleanly?
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A retired Snowbird pilot was interviewed and he said the ejection system is not 0/0 it is 0/60 (or 60/0) .... it is old school and you need a lot more altitude than modern seats .... he also said the pilot followed procedures for power failure .... nose up , gain altitude , hit air-start .... and if no start then eject ..... and that is exactly what the pilot did ... except he ejected a bit late.
I listened to the video and there is definitely an engine "pop" just after takeoff and that is when the pilot tried to gain altitude.
(my guess) is the delay in ejecting was maybe because the pilot wanted to make sure his passenger ejected .... she was part of the team but as public relations .... she would have had some training but he wanted to make sure.
No witness reports of chutes fully opening .... pilot hit a roof and badly injured .... sadly the lady passenger hit a tree and did not survive.
Only "good" thing is the jet went straight down into a front yard so minimum residential damages
I listened to the video and there is definitely an engine "pop" just after takeoff and that is when the pilot tried to gain altitude.
(my guess) is the delay in ejecting was maybe because the pilot wanted to make sure his passenger ejected .... she was part of the team but as public relations .... she would have had some training but he wanted to make sure.
No witness reports of chutes fully opening .... pilot hit a roof and badly injured .... sadly the lady passenger hit a tree and did not survive.
Only "good" thing is the jet went straight down into a front yard so minimum residential damages
Originally Posted by ASRAAMTOO
My deepest sympathies to all those touched by this crash.
For now I'm not going to comment on how the aircraft arrived in the position it did. I do however find myself surprised by the video of the ejection. I am very familiar with MB seats and the sequencing thereof but know very little about the seats fitted to the CT 114.
The large smoke plumes and lack of an early seat separation were a surprise to me. I would have expected seats of that vintage to use sequenced charges (or even a single charge) as they moved up the rails and for an immediate drogue deployment with separation occurring as soon as tumbling stopped.
Difficult to accurately assess height and ROD but it looked like a better result should have been obtained.
So the question is, did the seats work as specified? In which case they are probably not suitable for use in the "high risk" environment of a formation display team.
Several have commented on the Snowbirds use of what is essentially a vintage jet for their displays. I am not against that providing the risks are minimised. Lets face it the alternative would probably be a Harvard 2 or disbandment. I wonder if the fitment of something like an MB Mk 8 seat has ever been considered for the Snowbirds CT 114. I know it is available as a retrofit for the T37 which also has (albeit different) a Weber seat.
Perhaps the conversation was along the lines of " we struggle to justify the costs of the Snowbirds as it is, if you insist the current seats are unsafe we will just can the team".
Whatever happens as a result of this accident I hope the Snowbirds continue. I'd love it to be in the CT 114 but I think it will cost money. Hopefully that money can be found.
For now I'm not going to comment on how the aircraft arrived in the position it did. I do however find myself surprised by the video of the ejection. I am very familiar with MB seats and the sequencing thereof but know very little about the seats fitted to the CT 114.
The large smoke plumes and lack of an early seat separation were a surprise to me. I would have expected seats of that vintage to use sequenced charges (or even a single charge) as they moved up the rails and for an immediate drogue deployment with separation occurring as soon as tumbling stopped.
Difficult to accurately assess height and ROD but it looked like a better result should have been obtained.
So the question is, did the seats work as specified? In which case they are probably not suitable for use in the "high risk" environment of a formation display team.
Several have commented on the Snowbirds use of what is essentially a vintage jet for their displays. I am not against that providing the risks are minimised. Lets face it the alternative would probably be a Harvard 2 or disbandment. I wonder if the fitment of something like an MB Mk 8 seat has ever been considered for the Snowbirds CT 114. I know it is available as a retrofit for the T37 which also has (albeit different) a Weber seat.
Perhaps the conversation was along the lines of " we struggle to justify the costs of the Snowbirds as it is, if you insist the current seats are unsafe we will just can the team".
Whatever happens as a result of this accident I hope the Snowbirds continue. I'd love it to be in the CT 114 but I think it will cost money. Hopefully that money can be found.
That ejection looks very odd indeed - I've never seen smoke like that.
Possible EFATO or low thrust - use of energy to climb to height, attempted turn back and stall.
They were well into the stall before they got out; must have been right on the edge of the seat envelopes.
Pictures of those bags on top of the seats just beggars belief...
Originally Posted by tdracer
Just thinking out loud here, but:
AP based solid rocket propellant is very stable and stores quite well (in my amateur rocketry activities I've successfully used AP propellant reloads that were 20+ years old), with one exception:
It can become very difficult to ignite. A layer of oxide often forms on the exposed surfaces which interferes with the ability of the igniter pyrogen to ignite the propellant. This can result in one or more of what we call a 'chuff'' where the propellant partially ignites (resulting in a 'chuff' of exhaust), then a pause while the chamber pressure/temp come back up and either it 'chuffs' again or it properly ignites.
Perhaps an decades old ejection seat rocket motor didn't light cleanly?
AP based solid rocket propellant is very stable and stores quite well (in my amateur rocketry activities I've successfully used AP propellant reloads that were 20+ years old), with one exception:
It can become very difficult to ignite. A layer of oxide often forms on the exposed surfaces which interferes with the ability of the igniter pyrogen to ignite the propellant. This can result in one or more of what we call a 'chuff'' where the propellant partially ignites (resulting in a 'chuff' of exhaust), then a pause while the chamber pressure/temp come back up and either it 'chuffs' again or it properly ignites.
Perhaps an decades old ejection seat rocket motor didn't light cleanly?
Except I don’t think this type of seat has a rocket motor.
Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA
Photo of the incident departure. No bags on top of the seats.
Indeed, the earlier photo of Captn Casey sitting in 'her' jet has her name below the cockpit on the left side too.
In the video from the guy smoking I hear a pop as the aircraft draws level with him, but I don't hear a pop from the video with the girl saying 'show off'.
Very sad event.
In the video from the guy smoking I hear a pop as the aircraft draws level with him, but I don't hear a pop from the video with the girl saying 'show off'.
Very sad event.
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Originally Posted by ASRAAMTOO
If this is indeed the actual departure then it would appear that the person who landed on the roof was in the right hand seat. Is it normal for non aircrew passengers to sit in the left hand seat of a Tutor?
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Media Conference today featuring Snowbirds Commanding Officer Lieutenant Colonel Mike French. By request, he answers many of the same questions in English and French.
He calls the mishap a confluence of worst case scenarios and says that yesterday it became their worst nightmare.
He calls the mishap a confluence of worst case scenarios and says that yesterday it became their worst nightmare.
From my point of view as a former OC Armament in the days when we had RAF-manned ejection seat bays, the Weber CL-41 seat is a very old design dating back to the 1950s.
When calling it a "0/60" seat, that is before taking any downward vector into account - and there was a significant one here.
Also, the CL-41 does not have a rocket pack and the associated "dial-a-weight" function which adjusts the angle of the rocket pack to have the line of thrust through the C of G of the seat occupant.
It was not until the late-1960s when seats like the Martin Baker Mk H7 used in the Phantom started to get all the bells and whistles that most fast jet aircrew today would be familiar with.
MB H7 Seat: http://www.ejectionsite.com/f4seat.htm
Weber CL-41 Seat: http://www.ejectionsite.com/ct114seat.htm
When calling it a "0/60" seat, that is before taking any downward vector into account - and there was a significant one here.
Also, the CL-41 does not have a rocket pack and the associated "dial-a-weight" function which adjusts the angle of the rocket pack to have the line of thrust through the C of G of the seat occupant.
It was not until the late-1960s when seats like the Martin Baker Mk H7 used in the Phantom started to get all the bells and whistles that most fast jet aircrew today would be familiar with.
MB H7 Seat: http://www.ejectionsite.com/f4seat.htm
Weber CL-41 Seat: http://www.ejectionsite.com/ct114seat.htm
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Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09
Opinion and a bit more background on the CT-144 from You Tube user "blancolirio" who is a former USAF pilot:
Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA
Photo of the incident departure. No bags on top of the seats.
Other images show that Capt Jennifer Casey had a team red helmet. Also shown are her designation and name "Public Affairs Officer * Capt Jenn....." beside the cockpit.
This image does not have a three word title and the LHS occupant has a grey helmet.
Also the background is not appear to me to be consistent with a takeoff from Kamloops 09. There should be a big river behind the aircraft (not visible) and rising ground far behind that.About a mile away from the runway.
Finally they were on a transit and they do seem to carry bags on transits.
Of course many of these can be explained away but I don't think that is the flight in question.
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Originally Posted by jimjim1
Hmmm.
Other images show that Capt Jennifer Casey had a team red helmet. Also shown are her designation and name "Public Affairs Officer * Capt Jenn....." beside the cockpit.
This image does not have a three word title and the LHS occupant has a grey helmet.
Other images show that Capt Jennifer Casey had a team red helmet. Also shown are her designation and name "Public Affairs Officer * Capt Jenn....." beside the cockpit.
This image does not have a three word title and the LHS occupant has a grey helmet.
Here is a Facebook post by a photographer who goes by the handle of Saspotting:
https://www.facebook.com/saspotting/
I'd say the pictures are probably legit.
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Originally Posted by tartare
Yes - I do know that 
Have a look at multiple ejection videos on the web.
Flames, yes.
A bit of white smoke, occasionally.
First time I've seen that degree of brown/black smoke.
And there's more from one seat than the other.
The Tutor is a 1960s era aircraft - does it still use the Weber seats?
Perhaps just a different type of propellant...
Have a look at multiple ejection videos on the web.
Flames, yes.
A bit of white smoke, occasionally.
First time I've seen that degree of brown/black smoke.
And there's more from one seat than the other.
The Tutor is a 1960s era aircraft - does it still use the Weber seats?
Perhaps just a different type of propellant...
An observer saw the pilot "20 feet off the ground" and his parachute was still straight up. The nurse who worked on the passenger said her seat was beside her and the parachute was trailed but not open. Nurse interviewed on CBC an hour ago. She said she cannot believe the pilot survived.
I’m pretty sure the red you are seeing on her helmet is a visor cover.
For me it was vintage era ejection seats that led to her untimely death. I’m not sure that is forgivable. When the last option becomes the only option and it is older than you are....
For me it was vintage era ejection seats that led to her untimely death. I’m not sure that is forgivable. When the last option becomes the only option and it is older than you are....
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Originally Posted by ozbiggles
I’m pretty sure the red you are seeing on her helmet is a visor cover.
Originally Posted by ozbiggles
For me it was vintage era ejection seats that led to her untimely death. I’m not sure that is forgivable. When the last option becomes the only option and it is older than you are....
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/crash-...-say-1.4944146
https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1960912
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Originally Posted by dave.rooney
I had a look at Google Maps of the area around CYKA. An engine failure on takeoff leaves you with the choices of a Domtar pulp & paper mill on the south side of the river, or residential neighbourhoods on the north (and the river straight ahead). None of those options seem particularly good. Perhaps the pilot was at least trying to turn towards the northwest where there's a bit of open space near the airport as well as the golf course.
Had he been able to transition from the zoom to glide north to eject the aircraft would have come to earth in desert hills. Had he turned right, he could have pointed anywhere south and ejected at the top of the zoom or after stabilizing for optimal eject conditions. There is nobody on the south side of the Thompson. Nothing but desert hills.
Land on the river, unstrap and get out seems so obvious, but I suspect that is not something the military would ever consider. There was no realistic place to do a forced landing on land, certainly not that pulp mill.
Here is the overhead. The two yellow pins are where the pilot was found and where the aircraft impacted. It is 900 yards north to a safe impact area.
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