Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

'Eject' versus 'Bailout'

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

'Eject' versus 'Bailout'

Old 18th Aug 2019, 14:41
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: BOQ
Age: 75
Posts: 480
In the Phantom the selector valve control was called the 'Command Selector Handle' and the checklist action was 'to rotate or not rotate the handle', no use of the term 'command eject' on the ground. I preferred the 'not rotate' philosophy, but it was a front seater option. (Hours of single-seat hubris.)

You certainly would never have an 'orientation flight' rider or VIP even touch it. As F-16GUY says these folks generally are just 'hanging on' and hoping they won't have to use the 'bag'.

But back to the original discussion of USAF v Navy terminology. I believe there is also a significant difference in the Navy pre-eject vs USAF pre-bailout briefing for the 'time permitting' controlled 'ejection/bailout/We hereby relinquish all connection to and responsibility for the machine' situation. The final briefing item:

The USAF terminology is "I will see you in the bar."

The Navy says "I will see you in the raft."
OK465 is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2019, 14:50
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: East Sussex
Age: 81
Posts: 247
TTN,
When just rotated in one of our funships one dawn T/O you may remember when a flock of seaguls was collected. All four donks wavered a bit but still kept going. The AEO (bless has cottons) said calmly "Captain please remember I removed your pins". So there was no doubt in any of the crew's minds as to what executive order would have been given. It would have been without doubt "BAILOUT" times 3. I don't think the co-pilot would have needed any order!
pontifex is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2019, 17:55
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: England
Posts: 513
What's the RAF terminology for getting out of the jet quick-sharp on the ground?

I posted in the original thread on this (Lonewolgf linked to it in post #2), but the main reason (as it was explained to me) that the USAF goes with "Bailout" is because they use "Egress" on the ground. There was a fatality (1980s I think), where the A/C called for an "egress" as he was unstrapping, but the WSO heard "eject" and pulled the handles.
Ewan Whosearmy is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2019, 18:00
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Dundee
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by F-16GUY View Post
And the EPAF countries and all the other non native english speakers who fly the F-16 around the world.....

I think it makes good sense.

-We will have to use the ejection seat shortly if the engine does not relight
-I want you to establish the propper seating position for ejection
-Check that you are properly strapped in for ejection

If you have ever flown with inexperienced pax in the backseat of a fighter, you would know how overwhelmed they tend to be on the first few rides, and how much of their normal capacity is lost once they are strapped in and the canopy is closed. Furthermore, with all the noises in the cockpit, it would be fairly easy to miss hear what was said in those 3 sentences above, especially in a situation where one i scared shitless.
So what happens if/ when the driver is incapacitated between the EJECT bit and the BAILOUT COMMAND??

Or Vice Versa even???



On the positive side it probably got someone a well deserved promotion.
weemonkey is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2019, 19:34
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by Ewan Whosearmy View Post
What's the RAF terminology for getting out of the jet quick-sharp on the ground?

I posted in the original thread on this (Lonewolgf linked to it in post #2), but the main reason (as it was explained to me) that the USAF goes with "Bailout" is because they use "Egress" on the ground. There was a fatality (1980s I think), where the A/C called for an "egress" as he was unstrapping, but the WSO heard "eject" and pulled the handles.
I’m pretty sure we (Buccaneer and Tornado) used: “Emergency ground egress GO”
Timelord is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2019, 20:17
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 379
I think there was a discussion about this a while ago, but in a 2 seat aircraft with zero zero ejection seats, the moment you switch from an ejection option to an emergency ground egress has to be clearly defined and understood. It’s no good having one putting the pins in and unstrapping while the other pulls the handle as, I believe, has happened.
Timelord is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2019, 20:37
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 494
Originally Posted by F-16GUY View Post
And the EPAF countries and all the other non native english speakers who fly the F-16 around the world.....

I think it makes good sense.

-We will have to use the ejection seat shortly if the engine does not relight
-I want you to establish the propper seating position for ejection
-Check that you are properly strapped in for ejection

If you have ever flown with inexperienced pax in the backseat of a fighter, you would know how overwhelmed they tend to be on the first few rides, and how much of their normal capacity is lost once they are strapped in and the canopy is closed. Furthermore, with all the noises in the cockpit, it would be fairly easy to miss hear what was said in those 3 sentences above, especially in a situation where one i scared shitless.
Good point!
Doctor Cruces is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2019, 23:17
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 15,864
I suppose it's something to do with not confusing eject with something similar, rather like British ships of old shouting shoot for the main guns as opposed to fire, thus avoiding any confusion with warnings the ship is on fire during combat.


Mind you, bailout might have naval aviators looking for the bucket
NutLoose is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2019, 23:39
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 72
Posts: 3,711
Pontifex - funnily enough I was thinking of that incident only the other day when that Russian Airbus had a very short trip before ending up in a field. If only it had been fitted with Sapphires there would have been no problem!
Tankertrashnav is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2019, 02:49
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: A better place.
Posts: 1,575
So when you come to do the deed - how far out does the handle come - does it hit a stop?
Is the `bang' virtually instantaneous?

Two things focused my mind.
Putting the pins in the little holder thingy (don't drop them Pike) yep - this seat is now live.
And with the jet on the brakes - hearing in my helmet "...if we have engine failure on take off, I shall call Eject, Eject, Eject..."
tartare is online now  
Old 19th Aug 2019, 07:23
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,858
Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
On Tornados there were essentially 3 levels of preparedness:

1) Carry out the ‘Abandoning’ drill from the checklist. This culminated in a call of ‘EJECT EJECT EJECT’ with the teaching...
Reasonably certain LOMCEVAK can remember the Tornado procedures, save for flying FJ types with 2 seats but no trainer option, 2 seats that may or may not have a trainer option in the back, pure single-seat only, normally single-seat but with 2-seat version all in a mix with different seating arrangements, different users, nations and languages. Plenty opportunity for confusion.

I used to think that the urgency and tone was a major part of an ejection call, until a crew on a dark night in a Tornado over the water that went something like this:

[Background of lots of front-rear-front comms and FRC shuffling by rear seat pilot as CWP lights danced around faster than ever experienced in the sim...]

Front seat: "... [calm voice] ... oh and I have no control, err no... no control... we eject... yes..."

Rear seat: Looks up briefly from paper-and-thumb frenzy "... [quizzical tone]...err.. you're kidding me..."

Cue big bang and blinding flash of rockets in front of him, followed by a bigger and more painful bang with head/face/palm/FRC/thigh all trying to occupy the same space.
Just This Once... is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2019, 09:01
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by tartare View Post
So when you come to do the deed - how far out does the handle come - does it hit a stop?
Is the `bang' virtually instantaneous?

Two things focused my mind.
Putting the pins in the little holder thingy (don't drop them Pike) yep - this seat is now live.
And with the jet on the brakes - hearing in my helmet "...if we have engine failure on take off, I shall call Eject, Eject, Eject..."
The handle comes out about 3-4 inches and stops. Then there is a pause of a fraction of a second (which feels like about 10 minutes) before things start happening. Probably the canopy going first. Most ground schools and sims have seats that you can practice on.
Timelord is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2019, 11:02
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: England
Posts: 513
OK465

This may have been the incident in question (31:46 on the video):

Ewan Whosearmy is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2019, 12:14
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 70
Posts: 16,309
Warning: Thread Drift!

Then the Chinook Pilot story a minute or so later....about the offer to rescue a downed Air Force Pilot who landed in the middle of a retreating Iraqi Republican Guard Armored Division.

No confusion involved in that account.

SASless is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2019, 15:16
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: BOQ
Age: 75
Posts: 480
EW

Thanks for the video. Gruesome incident.

If I'd been a WSO, I think I would have preferred the pilot who didn't want the handle rotated (rear seat command ejection option)....and relieved me of any burden for firing (or misfiring) the high powered pyrotechnic device he was sitting on.
OK465 is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2019, 06:04
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Great yarmouth, Norfolk UK
Age: 67
Posts: 370
Unhappy

We civvies driving spam cans obviously don't have these fearsome beasties.
However, between crew we do have a verbal shorthand to indicate 'levels of concern'.
Level 1; "That's odd";
Level 2: "I've never seen it do that before";
Level3: "Oh SH1T!!!!!"..

Obviously we can go straight to level3 should circumstances demand...….
bobward is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2019, 07:43
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,412
I recall seeing a Tugg cartoon in Flight Deck showing a looker who'd punched out of a 'Vixen descending on his 'chute whilst the cab continued on its merry way with a pole sticking out of the coal hole.

It went something like:
"I thought he said 'Eject!'"
"Bugger. He must have said 'Oh Shit!"
"OH SHIT!!"

After which pilots were advised to be more careful with their choice of expletives!
BEagle is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2019, 08:59
  #38 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 55
Posts: 5,686
Heard a story years ago about a Jag T.2 taking off. Instructor thought the pupil looked a bit miserable and said "cheer up"; pupil misheard and raised the gear somewhat prematurely followed by the inevitable graunching noises. Any truth in that one? Sounds unlikely to me...
treadigraph is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2019, 09:22
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: these mist covered mountains are a home now for me.
Posts: 1,629
How did the instructor 'see' the student?
Runaway Gun is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2019, 12:26
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 15,864
On my Jag flight he told me he would call eject eject and if I heard it the third time it would be an echo..
NutLoose is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.