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AFPS15 - government decision.

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AFPS15 - government decision.

Old 23rd Jul 2020, 21:07
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Having skimmed through the 45 pages of 'Judicial Pensions: Proposed response to McCloud Consultation'... there is a nugget of good news "it is acknowledged that it will be necessary to pay interest where MoJ owes money to the member or memberís estate or dependants". Hopefully this is the full statutory 8% as the debt is a result of a law being broken.

If the AFPS goes along the same lines as the MoJ, it looks as though options will not be available for some time, unless you retired after AFPS 15 came into being in which case it would be earlier...
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Old 24th Jul 2020, 07:24
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Link to the above:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...to-McCloud.pdf
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 08:48
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Does anyone have any updates on this subject?
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 13:16
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HM Treasury hosted the final Ministry of Defence, AFPS / McCloud Technical Discussions on 7 Sep 20.

Beyond that I've heard nothing.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 14:58
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What interests me is they keep saying that '15 can benefit some people.....who are these people?

I'm 75/15 and every number I crunch puts me better of on 75 than a switch to a mix of 75/15.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 17:30
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Originally Posted by downsizer
What interests me is they keep saying that '15 can benefit some people.....who are these people?

I'm 75/15 and every number I crunch puts me better of on 75 than a switch to a mix of 75/15.

PAS staying to final pension is, I believe , better off under 15? Not done the maths on it as I don't care about it!
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 17:30
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Those who signed on to the age of 60 whilst fully on AFPS 75. Thatís because the pension stopped at the age of 55 and that would be 5 years of nothing if you left at 60. Now, they should get 5 years of the 15 pension.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 17:47
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Imagine still being "in" at 60. What a scary thought.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 20:02
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Originally Posted by Party Animal
Those who signed on to the age of 60 whilst fully on AFPS 75. Thatís because the pension stopped at the age of 55 and that would be 5 years of nothing if you left at 60. Now, they should get 5 years of the 15 pension.
Not strictly true Party Animal, but there's some truth in it because the AFPS 75 tops out after 34 years reckonable (typically from age 21) service (not necessarily at the age of 55). In my case I joined at the age of 24 and had expected to retire at 55 (the week before last in fact), so was not switched to AFPS 15. However, I have now extended to 60 and would have reached the top of the AFPS 75 scheme at the age of 58. At that point I would have stopped earning any additional levels on the scheme, so that I would have spent the last 2 years of my service marking time (apart from the expected annual CPI-based increases).

On the face of it, this seems a bit unfair, but I knew that when I accepted the offer - and I also knew that I could pull the yellow and black at 58 without penalty (ET carries no penalty at that point)..

What appears to be about to be offered will potentially prevent me getting to the top of the AFPS 75 scale, but I will at least have the potential to earn on the new scheme to age 60. The difference being that I presume the 15 scheme will not pay out until I am 67(?). There is risk attached to this of course, and it is one I would rather not take thank you.

I am cynical by nature and have always taken the view that any change to our pension arrangements would OVERALL (and therefore ON AVERAGE) lead to us receiving less financial benefit than staying on an existing scheme. Talking to colleagues at work, there seemed to be an expectation that those who had (unlawfully) been moved onto the AFPS 15 would simply be able to move back and that would be an end to it. I guess that's not quite the case.

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Old 19th Sep 2020, 22:31
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Originally Posted by SirToppamHat
What appears to be about to be offered will potentially prevent me getting to the top of the AFPS 75 scale, but I will at least have the potential to earn on the new scheme to age 60. The difference being that I presume the 15 scheme will not pay out until I am 67(?). There is risk attached to this of course, and it is one I would rather not take thank you.
e.
Im in a very similar boat, however if you stay in until your 60th birthday I think you will find that AFPS 15 becomes payable at 60; if you left the day before then you're right, the 15 portion will be paid at SPA. The risk is obviously being healthy enough to serve from 55 - 60 and not being discharged early or being removed from PAS on health grounds and into some other role!

What is still to be decided though is whether we need to decide shortly after 1 April 22 which pension scheme we wish 1 April 15 - 1 April 22 service to be counted as, or will we be given that option when we eventually claim our pensions. I fully expect Veterans UK will give you an illustration of both schemes for you to decide which is best for you. I think that is what the consultation period will iron out !

Interesting times

Last edited by Jambo Jet; 19th Sep 2020 at 22:52. Reason: Added a bit
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 23:51
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Originally Posted by Jambo Jet
I fully expect Veterans UK will give you an illustration of both schemes for you to decide which is best for you. I think that is what the consultation period will iron out !

Interesting times
I wouldnít bank on it if itís anything like the previous illustrations. They will pick a few ďrepresentativeĒ ranks and cases, which arenít particularly representative, and will leave you to do your own calculations. At best they will update the Pensions Calculator, but that will only be indicative given it doesnít take into account AVCs or future rises, whilst any calculation you get from Veterans UK will be based purely on current rank and pay.

As I recall the AFPS saying ahead of the 2005 changes, youíve more to lose from the wrong decision than youíll make from the right one. If I doubt stay put. Iím expecting similar Ďrule of thumbí advice this time round.
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 09:42
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Having read the last few posts I am kind of staggered at the lack of knowledge of the various Armed Forcesí Pension Schemes (AFPSs). The guidance booklets arenít that hard to understand and are even hosted on the open internet here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pensions...n-for-veterans These booklets were refreshed in Jul 20 to make them clearer and the same format to allow easy comparison.

If you canít be bothered to read them, then join the Forcesí Pension Society (FPS) who will basically read the books for you. They will also answer queries for you if you want someone to mark your homework. For £40/year, for many, that is a good investment too. Especially if you struggle with the simple guides in the first link. https://forcespensionsociety.org

So letís have a think about what happens if you retire after age 55:

1. AFPS75 - nothing, but you will likely get the same amount as if you retire at 55. For officers the maximum you can accrue is 34 years after age 21, and for airmen it is 37 years after age 18. However, few will now be on pure 75 now and many will be on 75/15.

2. AFPS75/15 - the same applies for the 75 above, but since Apr 15 you have been accruing AFPS15 as well at Career Average rate (since 2015 - which is important, as you will be getting a better rate). You can retire at 55 and you will get your full AFPS75 pension that you earned and whatever you earned since 2015 under AFPS15 as an Early Departure Payment (EDP). That EDP will be roughly 1/3rd of your final pension at State Pension Age (SPA). If you are FTRS, ADC, VeRR, etc... you will have to serve until age 60 as there is no EDP entitlement, but you can retire at 55 and take an actuarially reduced AFPS15 (the pension calculator can help you calculate this).

2. AFPS05 - nothing changes. You can retire at 55 and get the same benefits. Maximum benefits are earned after 40 years of service. Again, few will be on AFPS05 solely and most will be on AFPS05/15. Those that were on AFPS75 before but took the Offer To Transfer (OTT) in 2004/5 will only have entitlement to AFPS05 as their service in AFPS75 was fully transferred when they took the OTT. However, they preserved AFPS05 when they were transferred under AFPS15 to get AFPS05/15.

3. AFPS05/15 - Itís the same deal as AFPS75/15 apart from the fact that you have a portion of AFPS05 instead of AFPS75. But the rules for the AFPS15 portion are the same as above.

4. AFPS15 - for those that joined from 2015 onwards then the McCloud judgement does not apply. You are stuck with AFPS15. That sounds bad, but it isnít. Whilst it is not as good as AFPS75 or AFPS05 in many areas, it is still probably the very best public sector pension scheme out there. Actually, of you stay the full career to age 60 then you should have a better pension than either AFPS75 and AFPS05. So AFPS15 really rewards for long service and the 2 reward for mid-career breaks better.

So, you can leave between age 55 and age 60 and still get benefits. To maximise those, you need to do those last 5 years, but you can leave at 55 as before.

Get your heads in the 30(ish) page booklets in the first link. They really are easy readers! But if you canít manage that, or if you have complex affairs then join the FPS and pay what could be the best £40 ever.

Oh, and keep playing with the calculator for various scenarios to check your understanding... https://www.mod-pc.co.uk
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 16:43
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Bravo, LJ!

Originally Posted by Jambo Jet
if you stay in until your 60th birthday I think you will find that AFPS 15 becomes payable at 60; if you left the day before then you're right, the 15 portion will be paid at SPA.
This is correct, BUT it is important to say that if you leave at 60 you get no lump sum from AFPS15, whereas if you leave one day earlier, you do. Experimentation with the online calculator shows that (AFPS15 lump sum) divided by (number of years between 60 and SPA) gives a number tolerably close to the difference in annual pension. It is effectively a different way of receiving the same money and I know several people who have deliberately retired a few days early to receive a boost to their 75 or 05 lump sums.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 05:53
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
Having read the last few posts I am kind of staggered at the lack of knowledge of the various Armed Forcesí Pension Schemes (AFPSs). The guidance booklets arenít that hard to understand and are even hosted on the open internet here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pensions...n-for-veterans These booklets were refreshed in Jul 20 to make them clearer and the same format to allow easy comparison.

If you canít be bothered to read them, then join the Forcesí Pension Society (FPS) who will basically read the books for you. They will also answer queries for you if you want someone to mark your homework. For £40/year, for many, that is a good investment too. Especially if you struggle with the simple guides in the first link. https://forcespensionsociety.org

So letís have a think about what happens if you retire after age 55:

1. AFPS75 - nothing, but you will likely get the same amount as if you retire at 55. For officers the maximum you can accrue is 34 years after age 21, and for airmen it is 37 years after age 18. However, few will now be on pure 75 now and many will be on 75/15.

2. AFPS75/15 - the same applies for the 75 above, but since Apr 15 you have been accruing AFPS15 as well at Career Average rate (since 2015 - which is important, as you will be getting a better rate). You can retire at 55 and you will get your full AFPS75 pension that you earned and whatever you earned since 2015 under AFPS15 as an Early Departure Payment (EDP). That EDP will be roughly 1/3rd of your final pension at State Pension Age (SPA). If you are FTRS, ADC, VeRR, etc... you will have to serve until age 60 as there is no EDP entitlement, but you can retire at 55 and take an actuarially reduced AFPS15 (the pension calculator can help you calculate this).

2. AFPS05 - nothing changes. You can retire at 55 and get the same benefits. Maximum benefits are earned after 40 years of service. Again, few will be on AFPS05 solely and most will be on AFPS05/15. Those that were on AFPS75 before but took the Offer To Transfer (OTT) in 2004/5 will only have entitlement to AFPS05 as their service in AFPS75 was fully transferred when they took the OTT. However, they preserved AFPS05 when they were transferred under AFPS15 to get AFPS05/15.

3. AFPS05/15 - Itís the same deal as AFPS75/15 apart from the fact that you have a portion of AFPS05 instead of AFPS75. But the rules for the AFPS15 portion are the same as above.

4. AFPS15 - for those that joined from 2015 onwards then the McCloud judgement does not apply. You are stuck with AFPS15. That sounds bad, but it isnít. Whilst it is not as good as AFPS75 or AFPS05 in many areas, it is still probably the very best public sector pension scheme out there. Actually, of you stay the full career to age 60 then you should have a better pension than either AFPS75 and AFPS05. So AFPS15 really rewards for long service and the 2 reward for mid-career breaks better.

So, you can leave between age 55 and age 60 and still get benefits. To maximise those, you need to do those last 5 years, but you can leave at 55 as before.

Get your heads in the 30(ish) page booklets in the first link. They really are easy readers! But if you canít manage that, or if you have complex affairs then join the FPS and pay what could be the best £40 ever.

Oh, and keep playing with the calculator for various scenarios to check your understanding... https://www.mod-pc.co.uk
so how does someone who has left on a mix of AFPS75 and AFPS15 find out what they should have had on just 75 using the calculators? It doesnít seem to allow historic leaving dates, so there doesnít seem to be a retrospective option?
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 06:34
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Originally Posted by Common_Sense
so how does someone who has left on a mix of AFPS75 and AFPS15 find out what they should have had on just 75 using the calculators? It doesnít seem to allow historic leaving dates, so there doesnít seem to be a retrospective option?
You could look at the Tri-Service Pension Codes and look how much you'd get for the amount of years served on 75.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...des-april-2020

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Old 13th Nov 2020, 21:18
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Anybody heard any news on this yet?
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 08:05
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We are not expecting to hear much before the Spring.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 23:52
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Originally Posted by ForcesPensionSociety
We are not expecting to hear much before the Spring.
That 8% statutory interest is adding up
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Old 15th Nov 2020, 07:04
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Originally Posted by Common_Sense
Anybody heard any news on this yet?
The public consultation only ended a month ago.
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Old 19th Jan 2021, 14:48
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Any news yet? Surely with covid this could have been staffed from home?
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