Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

AFPS15 - government decision.

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

AFPS15 - government decision.

Old 30th Jan 2019, 19:05
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @RAF_IFA
Posts: 3,265
AFPS15 - government decision.

In December, The Fire Brigades Union won a landmark ruling in its dispute with the government over changes made to firefighters’ pensions in 2015. It signaled that younger firefighters on the new scheme would have to be put back on the previous pension scheme, and was fought on the basis of age discrimination. You may remember that some of you had grandfathering rights bestowed upon them, and were able to remain in their existing scheme due to proximity to normal retirement age. The government said it would appeal of course. But this announcement from Liz Truss is interesting. If it fails, it seems that remedial action may cost the Treasury £4bns pa.

Watch this space.. Pensions eh? Who said they were boring? Whenever I meet someone at a do and they ask what I now do, and I say ‘Pensions actually, a bit dull I’m afraid’, their likely faces usually light up. ‘No, no.. not dull at all!’

https://www.parliament.uk/business/p...1-30/HCWS1286/


Al R is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2019, 19:08
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 56
Posts: 1,981
My missus is in a group of police officers fighting the same decision, waiting to see what happens here. Another group fighting it are our Judges!! Who will rule on their case?
jayteeto is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2019, 19:47
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,874
Having left on mixed 75/15 terms I guess my pension payments may change again. Presumably the gov could appeal the recent decision to the UKSC to get even more learned judges involved.
Just This Once... is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2019, 19:59
  #4 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @RAF_IFA
Posts: 3,265
I only dread to think how lifetime allowance headroom/breaches will be calculated/recalculated, if benefits increase.
Al R is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2019, 20:43
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 134
The sinister side of me is wondering how long it will be before we have another deviation in the Pensions; having saved a fortune going from RPI to CPI, I sense the next venture will be a mandated transfer from CPI to CPI(H)...
reds & greens is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 21:35
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pastures new
Posts: 283
Oh no! Don't put me back on APFS05. I left a few years ago and have rejoined on APFS15. I love the new career average calculation from the comfort of level 35 PAS!
kintyred is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 23:01
  #7 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @RAF_IFA
Posts: 3,265
Al R is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 23:57
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Darling - where are we?
Posts: 2,496
Originally Posted by jayteeto View Post
My missus is in a group of police officers fighting the same decision, waiting to see what happens here. Another group fighting it are our Judges!! Who will rule on their case?
I think the judges’ case was considered alongside the firefighters case back in Dec because of the similarities of the 2.

Part of me is quite excited to see a penny-pinching short-termist Government skewered by their own legislation. However, some thoughts did spring to mind if they lose their appeal and have to put things right.

1. More pensions uncertainty would follow. My betting would be a new scheme introduced to keep the pensions bill down, with no grandfather rights and everybody even worse off than now to avoid inflating the pensions bill further (despite the fact that more folk leaving and fewer staying long enough to earn a pension means the bill going forward is already lower). Especially if the economy tanks post-BREXIT.

2. Any new scheme would potentially be contributory or have a lower level of annual accrual.

3. Played out across the public sector, if the economy does tank with job losses, wage freezes and generally more fiscal misery, the public wouldn’t take kindly to being told the government has to find an extra £4Bn to sort out a pensions Mess. Would this see a renewed campaign against public sector pensions? If the government is looking to rebuild its popularity ahead of an election, this would be one way. Misery for all!

4. If forced to review the AFPS 15 measures, what else would be cut to pay for it? Well, depending which bit of the budget pensions come out of, I can see more personnel cuts, making life even harder for those left.

In short, much like bags of smoke, this could be a double-edged sword. I’ll happily go back to 75, but the wary cynic in me says it won’t be that simple.
Melchett01 is online now  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 15:02
  #9 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @RAF_IFA
Posts: 3,265
‪This looks like everyone in Armed Forces Pension Scheme who was erroneously moved into AFPS15, will be returned to membership their previous scheme (most likely AFPS05). ‬

‪Remedying the discrimination will cost c£4bn a year. ‬

https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2...2015-pensions/
Al R is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 15:27
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 351
can anyone explain the basis of the £ 4 Bn per year please?

The AFPS has stated:-

"In line with other public service pension schemes the AFPS has considered the potential impact on the outcome on the scheme and, as a result, felt it prudent to increase the past service costs. For the AFPS this has been estimated at £1.9 billion and has been recognised in 2018-19. Further details on the valuation of the liability, the key assumptions and uncertainties can be found in notes 2.1 and 13.4 to the accounts."
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 15:29
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around
Posts: 818
Why would you be moved back to '05 if you were purely on '75?
downsizer is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 15:35
  #12 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @RAF_IFA
Posts: 3,265
Originally Posted by downsizer View Post
Why would you be moved back to '05 if you were purely on '75?
You wouldn’t. I was assuming that more still in service and compulsorily transitioned, will have done so from 05 by now, that’s all. The remedial work required is going to be mind boggling.
Al R is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 15:37
  #13 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @RAF_IFA
Posts: 3,265
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
can anyone explain the basis of the £ 4 Bn per year please?."
It relates to the public sector, not just AFPS.
Al R is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 16:40
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,874
PA Spine on AFPS75/15 terms is considerably more lucrative than pure AFPS75 terms.

Interesting times.
Just This Once... is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 16:50
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 367
This will have previous winners, who are now losers and vice-versa! Standby for lots of stress and moaning. This is such a mess.

I wonder if people will be given the choice of moving or not....
heights good is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 16:51
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,874
No union or representation for HM Forces; if the government had applied the 2015 pension changes to the Armed Forces alone then there would have been no day in court and no remedial financial adjustment.

Funny how things turn out, especially when you force a change on the judiciary.
Just This Once... is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 18:34
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around
Posts: 818
The best thing "they" could have done was enroll all post 15 joiners on the 15 pension and offer all in service pre-15 the choice. Same as they did for the 05 scheme. Would have avoided all this mess.
downsizer is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 18:42
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Odiham
Posts: 167
REVERSION PENSION CALCULATOR

It would really useful if a Pension Calculator was produced to show the differences between 75/15 and pure 75 (other combinations apply too, of course!) assuming we will get a choice of reverting, or not.....
wokkamate is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 18:56
  #19 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @RAF_IFA
Posts: 3,265
Originally Posted by wokkamate View Post
It would really useful if a Pension Calculator was produced to show the differences between 75/15 and pure 75 (other combinations apply too, of course!) assuming we will get a choice of reverting, or not.....
It would be futile.

I don’t know if HMG will simply authorise restitution or go down the compensation route. The possibilities are mind boggling. I have no doubt that many will have been severely financially disadvantaged. The opportunity cost is a major major exercise in its own right. I suspect HMG and MoD will try to fudge it.

The granular detail you can go down to is as specific as the impact of leaving, getting divorced, experiencing a PSO or child maintenance payments, or an actuarial calculation and it being made redundant.

If you go back to 75 and your accrual is different (in terms of date and profile) that has an impact on AA and LTA (probably unkindly so), and what about those who left because the pension got rubbish all of a sudden?

It’s a disaster.

Last edited by Al R; 3rd Dec 2019 at 19:42.
Al R is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 20:08
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chigley
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by wokkamate View Post
It would really useful if a Pension Calculator was produced to show the differences between 75/15 and pure 75 (other combinations apply too, of course!) assuming we will get a choice of reverting, or not.....
Just run the current calculator with your current expected dates. And for 75/05 only make sure you are aged 45 or older on 1 April 2012 !
Jambo Jet is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.