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-   -   AFPS15 - government decision. (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/617838-afps15-government-decision.html)

Al R 30th Jan 2019 18:05

AFPS15 - government decision.
 
In December, The Fire Brigades Union won a landmark ruling in its dispute with the government over changes made to firefighters’ pensions in 2015. It signaled that younger firefighters on the new scheme would have to be put back on the previous pension scheme, and was fought on the basis of age discrimination. You may remember that some of you had grandfathering rights bestowed upon them, and were able to remain in their existing scheme due to proximity to normal retirement age. The government said it would appeal of course. But this announcement from Liz Truss is interesting. If it fails, it seems that remedial action may cost the Treasury £4bns pa.

Watch this space.. Pensions eh? Who said they were boring? Whenever I meet someone at a do and they ask what I now do, and I say ‘Pensions actually, a bit dull I’m afraid’, their likely faces usually light up. ‘No, no.. not dull at all!’

https://www.parliament.uk/business/p...1-30/HCWS1286/



jayteeto 30th Jan 2019 18:08

My missus is in a group of police officers fighting the same decision, waiting to see what happens here. Another group fighting it are our Judges!! Who will rule on their case?

Just This Once... 30th Jan 2019 18:47

Having left on mixed 75/15 terms I guess my pension payments may change again. Presumably the gov could appeal the recent decision to the UKSC to get even more learned judges involved.

Al R 30th Jan 2019 18:59

I only dread to think how lifetime allowance headroom/breaches will be calculated/recalculated, if benefits increase.

reds & greens 30th Jan 2019 19:43

The sinister side of me is wondering how long it will be before we have another deviation in the Pensions; having saved a fortune going from RPI to CPI, I sense the next venture will be a mandated transfer from CPI to CPI(H)...

kintyred 31st Jan 2019 20:35

Oh no! Don't put me back on APFS05. I left a few years ago and have rejoined on APFS15. I love the new career average calculation from the comfort of level 35 PAS!

Al R 31st Jan 2019 22:01


Melchett01 31st Jan 2019 22:57


Originally Posted by jayteeto (Post 10375808)
My missus is in a group of police officers fighting the same decision, waiting to see what happens here. Another group fighting it are our Judges!! Who will rule on their case?

I think the judges’ case was considered alongside the firefighters case back in Dec because of the similarities of the 2.

Part of me is quite excited to see a penny-pinching short-termist Government skewered by their own legislation. However, some thoughts did spring to mind if they lose their appeal and have to put things right.

1. More pensions uncertainty would follow. My betting would be a new scheme introduced to keep the pensions bill down, with no grandfather rights and everybody even worse off than now to avoid inflating the pensions bill further (despite the fact that more folk leaving and fewer staying long enough to earn a pension means the bill going forward is already lower). Especially if the economy tanks post-BREXIT.

2. Any new scheme would potentially be contributory or have a lower level of annual accrual.

3. Played out across the public sector, if the economy does tank with job losses, wage freezes and generally more fiscal misery, the public wouldn’t take kindly to being told the government has to find an extra £4Bn to sort out a pensions Mess. Would this see a renewed campaign against public sector pensions? If the government is looking to rebuild its popularity ahead of an election, this would be one way. Misery for all!

4. If forced to review the AFPS 15 measures, what else would be cut to pay for it? Well, depending which bit of the budget pensions come out of, I can see more personnel cuts, making life even harder for those left.

In short, much like bags of smoke, this could be a double-edged sword. I’ll happily go back to 75, but the wary cynic in me says it won’t be that simple.

Al R 3rd Dec 2019 14:02

‪This looks like everyone in Armed Forces Pension Scheme who was erroneously moved into AFPS15, will be returned to membership their previous scheme (most likely AFPS05). ‬

‪Remedying the discrimination will cost c£4bn a year. ‬
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9214fdc85.jpeg
https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2...2015-pensions/

Asturias56 3rd Dec 2019 14:27

can anyone explain the basis of the £ 4 Bn per year please?

The AFPS has stated:-

"In line with other public service pension schemes the AFPS has considered the potential impact on the outcome on the scheme and, as a result, felt it prudent to increase the past service costs. For the AFPS this has been estimated at £1.9 billion and has been recognised in 2018-19. Further details on the valuation of the liability, the key assumptions and uncertainties can be found in notes 2.1 and 13.4 to the accounts."

downsizer 3rd Dec 2019 14:29

Why would you be moved back to '05 if you were purely on '75?

Al R 3rd Dec 2019 14:35


Originally Posted by downsizer (Post 10631754)
Why would you be moved back to '05 if you were purely on '75?

You wouldn’t. I was assuming that more still in service and compulsorily transitioned, will have done so from 05 by now, that’s all. The remedial work required is going to be mind boggling.

Al R 3rd Dec 2019 14:37


Originally Posted by Asturias56 (Post 10631753)
can anyone explain the basis of the £ 4 Bn per year please?."

It relates to the public sector, not just AFPS.

Just This Once... 3rd Dec 2019 15:40

PA Spine on AFPS75/15 terms is considerably more lucrative than pure AFPS75 terms.

Interesting times.

heights good 3rd Dec 2019 15:50

This will have previous winners, who are now losers and vice-versa! Standby for lots of stress and moaning. This is such a mess.

I wonder if people will be given the choice of moving or not....

Just This Once... 3rd Dec 2019 15:51

No union or representation for HM Forces; if the government had applied the 2015 pension changes to the Armed Forces alone then there would have been no day in court and no remedial financial adjustment.

Funny how things turn out, especially when you force a change on the judiciary.

downsizer 3rd Dec 2019 17:34

The best thing "they" could have done was enroll all post 15 joiners on the 15 pension and offer all in service pre-15 the choice. Same as they did for the 05 scheme. Would have avoided all this mess.

wokkamate 3rd Dec 2019 17:42

REVERSION PENSION CALCULATOR
 
It would really useful if a Pension Calculator was produced to show the differences between 75/15 and pure 75 (other combinations apply too, of course!) assuming we will get a choice of reverting, or not.....

Al R 3rd Dec 2019 17:56


Originally Posted by wokkamate (Post 10631876)
It would really useful if a Pension Calculator was produced to show the differences between 75/15 and pure 75 (other combinations apply too, of course!) assuming we will get a choice of reverting, or not.....

It would be futile.

I don’t know if HMG will simply authorise restitution or go down the compensation route. The possibilities are mind boggling. I have no doubt that many will have been severely financially disadvantaged. The opportunity cost is a major major exercise in its own right. I suspect HMG and MoD will try to fudge it.

The granular detail you can go down to is as specific as the impact of leaving, getting divorced, experiencing a PSO or child maintenance payments, or an actuarial calculation and it being made redundant.

If you go back to 75 and your accrual is different (in terms of date and profile) that has an impact on AA and LTA (probably unkindly so), and what about those who left because the pension got rubbish all of a sudden?

It’s a disaster.

Jambo Jet 3rd Dec 2019 19:08


Originally Posted by wokkamate (Post 10631876)
It would really useful if a Pension Calculator was produced to show the differences between 75/15 and pure 75 (other combinations apply too, of course!) assuming we will get a choice of reverting, or not.....

Just run the current calculator with your current expected dates. And for 75/05 only make sure you are aged 45 or older on 1 April 2012 !


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