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INCIDENT AT VALLEY

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INCIDENT AT VALLEY

Old 21st Mar 2018, 13:22
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Originally Posted by jindabyne View Post
spannermonkey

I side with your comments. Aside from a few posts, what a rotten thread. Sad reflection of the time.
I concur, the worst moments in life appear to bring out the worst in some of those remaining...
Such a sad state of affairs to see people who should know better picking over the death of someone without any regard to who may be reading it..
Have some respect guys.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 13:40
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
I am deliberately staying out of the wider conversation but I just wish to clear up a couple of things.

Until several years ago pax in the Reds did not wear G trousers. That changed and now pax do wear them.
!
I flew P2 as a civvy with Ray Thilthorpe from the fast jet school back in the 1980's and went through an excellent briefing and medical. The G suit certainly did work. The eject routine was part of the briefing.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 13:42
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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But that's not with the Reds though, is it?
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 13:47
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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Around 2002 I did 3 display back seats all non gpants
First 2 were no problem but synchro pair was hard work g-wise. Glad to see them used now.
The press read these pages and quote them as fact, we have a duty to be responsible in posting. THINK before pressing send. If something if fact, great, if something is rumour? Great! But he careful of making speculation sound like fact
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 14:24
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jayand View Post
Irrespective of the cause of this tragic loss this will inevitably lead to searching questions about the carriage of non aircrew in the back of fast jets. There are good reasons why aircrew selection and in particular FJ training is so stringent and difficult. Having limited trained, non aircrew personnel in the back of a single engined FJ with as I understand it no command ejection is asking for trouble. Sadly nothing will bring back this man or lessen the pain for his family but undoubtedly this practice will be reviewed.
I couldn't disagree more with your opinion Jayand. As has been pointed out a number of posts ago, the unique nature of the RAFAT operation and the support structure means that those selected to be part of the backseat team are given appropriate extensive training (and medical testing) in order for them to fulfill their role.

So please let us not question the validity of the Team's operational policy in regard to this.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 15:55
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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When I was a cadet, I was lucky enough to be given a seat in a fast jet formation event.

A whole morning of medical, AEA brief, bang seat brief, dinghy brief before lunch and out to the jet having changed into flying kit. No turning trousers though.

That was over 50 years ago and the jet was a Sea Vixen; the event was Farnborough 1966. I greyed out a bit during the simulated rocket attack, but that was all - apart from using the honk bag after bouncing around at low level with only a tiny window for the coal hole.

My point being that pax trips in fast jets included thorough briefs even then and there's no doubt that they still do. RAFAT policy for back seat rides for non-aircrew will undoubtedly be of a very high quality indeed.

RIP to the back seater - a sad day indeed for the Team both red and blue as well, of course, for the friends and family of the deceased engineer.

Last edited by BEagle; 21st Mar 2018 at 16:12.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 17:06
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Expert!



Quote:


Originally Posted by dragartist View Post

Who was the guy on the BBC just now in the RAeS tie, suggesting you could eat your lunch of the Inside of the Jet pipe and describing a “Martin Baker letdown” could do without this at a time like this. He was almost rejoicing.

Sadly, another 'expert' who has been tapped-up to pronounce on something way beyond his level of knowledge or it seemed understanding.
He was an ex-Red. Don't know how much more knowledgeable/qualified you want your 'experts' to be?
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 17:09
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sky Sports View Post
He was an ex-Red. Don't know how much more knowledgeable/qualified you want your 'experts' to be?
Not PPRuNe-accredited though, is he.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 17:31
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Cpl Jonathan Bayliss named as victim of the accident.

http://https://www.gov.uk/government...the-red-arrows
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 17:55
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAFAT View Post
I couldn't disagree more with your opinion Jayand. As has been pointed out a number of posts ago, the unique nature of the RAFAT operation and the support structure means that those selected to be part of the backseat team are given appropriate extensive training (and medical testing) in order for them to fulfill their role.

So please let us not question the validity of the Team's operational policy in regard to this.
It is very reassuring and not surprising to read that the guys and girls on the circus do have a robust training programme for their back seat obligations. I wasn't aware of this and was merely making a point that this will undoubtedly be a point of particular scrutiny in the following weeks and months. At no point did I suggest that this was a cause or reason for what has sadly happened. With the knowledge of their training now known I still have and think the FJ community should have serious questions about pax and their very limited training/knowledge.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 17:59
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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The link above regarding the Royal Air Force Engineer did not work for me, but this one did.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/m...the-red-arrows
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 18:55
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by roving View Post
The link above regarding the Royal Air Force Engineer did not work for me, but this one did.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/m...the-red-arrows
The link describes a motivated, skilled, inspirational and well liked man.
It is an understatement to say he will be missed by his colleagues.
My sincere condolences are offered to all who knew him.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 19:02
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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I notice they have removed all the individual photos of the circus from the website, it makes sense until things calm down.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 19:06
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sky Sports View Post
He was an ex-Red. Don't know how much more knowledgeable/qualified you want your 'experts' to be?
Although he was an RAF pilot he did not fly FJs and was not a Red. But he is a decent bloke who just chose his words badly this morning.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 19:40
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Tragic crash at Valley

This is desparately sad for all involved. I wouldn't dream of speculating on such a tragic incident. I am content to wait for due process.

However, one thing puzzles me and as I have often been told that there is no such thing as a stupid question, here goes:

The guys on here in the know have confirmed that on the Hawk, command ejection is rear seat commands front, or front only and rear only so presumably the brief from the front is "If I go you go immediately"?

I can see the logic of techs going on fly aways, but what puzzles me is why the pilot doesn't fly from the rear seat [as the QFI would with a stude] on these occasions, so he/she can eject the front seat if need be?

[And I do know ejection seats cannot solve all problems].
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 19:44
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cyclic35 View Post
The link describes a motivated, skilled, inspirational and well liked man.
It is an understatement to say he will be missed by his colleagues.
My sincere condolences are offered to all who knew him.
Hear hear.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 19:53
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Thoughts

I was lucky enough to have this outstanding engineer work for me back in Coltishall days. A lovely bloke, great company, professional and no doubt a dreadful loss to his current unit. Per Ardua Jon.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 20:12
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bravo Alpha One View Post
This is desparately sad for all involved. I wouldn't dream of speculating on such a tragic incident. I am content to wait for due process.

However, one thing puzzles me and as I have often been told that there is no such thing as a stupid question, here goes:

The guys on here in the know have confirmed that on the Hawk, command ejection is rear seat commands front, or front only and rear only so presumably the brief from the front is "If I go you go immediately"?

I can see the logic of techs going on fly aways, but what puzzles me is why the pilot doesn't fly from the rear seat [as the QFI would with a stude] on these occasions, so he/she can eject the front seat if need be?

[And I do know ejection seats cannot solve all problems].
All DISPLAYS are flown from the front seat, IIRC.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 20:18
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jayand View Post
Irrespective of the cause of this tragic loss this will inevitably lead to searching questions about the carriage of non aircrew in the back of fast jets. There are good reasons why aircrew selection and in particular FJ training is so stringent and difficult. Having limited trained, non aircrew personnel in the back of a single engined FJ with as I understand it no command ejection is asking for trouble. Sadly nothing will bring back this man or lessen the pain for his family but undoubtedly this practice will be reviewed.
Sad to read this rubbish.
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Old 21st Mar 2018, 20:21
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
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I'm feeling very sad for the young engineer's family, and also for the pilot whose injuries are unknown but possibly severe given the lack of news.

But I have a simple question. Why don't all Hawks have an inbuilt selector switch for command ejection - front/rear/both? This is simple binary logic, costing peanuts. Even before the Hawk was conceived, it must have been pencilled in as a Red Arrows aircraft so could potentially have had rear-seat passengers. It has been through multiple refits since birth. So how has this been overlooked?
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