INCIDENT AT VALLEY
Very sad. My thoughts are with those involved.
I note one of the rags has named the pilot involved, not sure if this has come from an official source, an OfTR briefing or just informed speculation.
Perhaps the rarity of fast jet accidents these days causes the inevitable rush to be 'first' with the news.
I note one of the rags has named the pilot involved, not sure if this has come from an official source, an OfTR briefing or just informed speculation.
Perhaps the rarity of fast jet accidents these days causes the inevitable rush to be 'first' with the news.
spannermonkey -
Unfortunately for your sentiments, this is a public forum and people on it will speculate and make wild guesses just like they can on other forums or in comment sections in the media. Should they have the time, they have a plethora of platforms on which to comment about this tragedy or indeed, any number of other tragedies that befall people every day.
The only consolation that can be offered is that relatives and friends affected directly by such incidents rarely go to such forums or comment sections of the press media. By far worse are the TV stations who, I believe, do cause considerable upset to those affected as they scavenge for their 'story'.
Unfortunately for your sentiments, this is a public forum and people on it will speculate and make wild guesses just like they can on other forums or in comment sections in the media. Should they have the time, they have a plethora of platforms on which to comment about this tragedy or indeed, any number of other tragedies that befall people every day.
The only consolation that can be offered is that relatives and friends affected directly by such incidents rarely go to such forums or comment sections of the press media. By far worse are the TV stations who, I believe, do cause considerable upset to those affected as they scavenge for their 'story'.
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Aside from the physical act of pulling the handle and all the decisions and timing that go with that what about the lack of Survival training non aircrew have for these backseat flights? What if an ejection occured over the sea, are they familiar/well practiced in the skills of sea survival? Annual pool drills? Liferafts, PSP's etc? The enquiry into this I suspect will be messy.
This week the 2018 Red Arrows Circus engineers carried out their Aircrew Maritime Survival training with expert tuition from personnel at the Defence Survival Training Organisation at RAF St Mawgan. The drills involved practicing in the pool prior to carrying out the final assessment in the very cold, rough sea off Plymouth Harbour.
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The Red Arrows are thought routinely to take ground crew in rear seats to airshows when they plan to be based away from Scampton. Back seat rides are also a much sought after perk.
It is distressing that life was lost in this accident, but that should not stop the practice. When the facts emerge, they may well reveal that the irretrievable emergency occurred when the aircraft was very near the ground. Certainly the passenger would have been fully briefed.
It is distressing that life was lost in this accident, but that should not stop the practice. When the facts emerge, they may well reveal that the irretrievable emergency occurred when the aircraft was very near the ground. Certainly the passenger would have been fully briefed.
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The young journalist in this report, flew very recently with the Red Arrows. He describes in detail, with filming, the training he received on the ejector seat before the flight. See from 9 minutes in. He makes clear that he was instructed that there was no command ejection and what he was instructed to do if there was a bird strike or other issue.
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PS I'm an ex-Flight Safety Officer (RAF) and flown many times on bang seats - albeit different aircraft. Also was the Aircrew Specialist working with BAE Systems on the Hawk T2 (and others) Aircrew technical documentation for over 3 years. What would I know?
Jayand, I can confirm that before flying in a Hawk, I was well briefed on ejection over sea, the only difference was that unlike RAF pilots I did not actually do the 'wet drills' but was fairly confident of the drills. To add I was also bried in vacating the aircraft in the event of the ejection seat failing, clearly you need height for that.
To answer Mainjafad I cannot speak for todays regs but in the past quite a few civvy pilots with media connections and RAF groundstaff got to fly in the Hawk.
Prime Minister expressing condolences to "the family and friends of the Red Arrows engineer..." at Prime Minister's Questions.
Leader of the Opposition also wishing the pilot well in his recovery.
airsound
Leader of the Opposition also wishing the pilot well in his recovery.
airsound
Last edited by airsound; 21st Mar 2018 at 12:08. Reason: adding Mr Corbyn
Surprised to see a back seat PAX wearing a G suit with the Reds. Always thought they were prohibited as they can affect the controls when inflated.
Pretty sure Lewis Hamilton didn't wear them. I do stand to be corrected however.
Pretty sure Lewis Hamilton didn't wear them. I do stand to be corrected however.
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I understand each Red Arrow has its own dedicated engineer who transits to displays as PAX with the crew. As for why the pilots were at Valley, it is reported is was for monthly simulator training. Perhaps the Red Arrows only use their own engineers for land aways. Also maybe the Red Arrows engineers do recurrent training at the same time, as Valley must be the major Hawk maintenance unit.
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Treble One..... G suits do not significantly 'inflate' during high G, to the extentent that they would affect the controls, and you could not really fly in the rear seat without them.
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I did a back seat ride with the Reds many years ago & did indeed not get a g-suit in case of control restrictions- it was quite hard work, especially the rolling display, as we were pulling in excess of 7G as I recall. Tolerable as a pax, with only the G-straining manoeuvre to perform.
Agree with you 100% anchorhold. Having also flown the Hawk from Valley as a civvy P2 the pre flight drills and medical are exemplary .
To answer Mainjafad I cannot speak for todays regs but in the past quite a few civvy pilots with media connections and RAF groundstaff got to fly in the Hawk.
To answer Mainjafad I cannot speak for todays regs but in the past quite a few civvy pilots with media connections and RAF groundstaff got to fly in the Hawk.
Pretty sure rear seat pax don't wear a g-suit when the Reds display due to possible snagging of the CC when full aileron deflection is used. Perhaps not the same during a transit or SCT.
Well for a start Oberon, the Valley Hawks are all T2s with the Reds being possibly the last unit to operate the T1. Big difference in cockpit/avionics, for a start.........
Thanks anchorhold for the clarification. Maybe I was getting mixed up with The Blue Angels who don't wear them for that reason.
Skua: A different ejection seat too.....before the 'vultures' start down that route!
My thoughts and prayers go out to the pilot and all the families of those affected.
A sad day indeed.
RIP Engineer. ......Ad Astra.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the pilot and all the families of those affected.
A sad day indeed.
RIP Engineer. ......Ad Astra.
Last edited by oldmansquipper; 21st Mar 2018 at 13:03. Reason: Add Skua
I am deliberately staying out of the wider conversation but I just wish to clear up a couple of things.
Until several years ago pax in the Reds did not wear G trousers. That changed and now pax do wear them.
Command ejection only works from back to front and not vice versa.
Several other units still operate Hawk T1s (836 NAS, 100 Sqn, RAFCAM).
I know plenty about how the Reds operate but I do not know enough to say any more than what I have said above.
I wasn’t there yesterday so I cannot add anything useful.
A very sad day And my sincerest condolences to all affected.
BV
Edited because someone pointed out my stupid error!
Until several years ago pax in the Reds did not wear G trousers. That changed and now pax do wear them.
Command ejection only works from back to front and not vice versa.
Several other units still operate Hawk T1s (836 NAS, 100 Sqn, RAFCAM).
I know plenty about how the Reds operate but I do not know enough to say any more than what I have said above.
I wasn’t there yesterday so I cannot add anything useful.
A very sad day And my sincerest condolences to all affected.
BV
Edited because someone pointed out my stupid error!
Last edited by Bob Viking; 21st Mar 2018 at 13:28. Reason: Cos I’m a div!
Command ejection only works from front to back and not vice versa.