INCIDENT AT VALLEY
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I'm feeling very sad for the young engineer's family, and also for the pilot whose injuries are unknown but possibly severe given the lack of news.
But I have a simple question. Why don't all Hawks have an inbuilt selector switch for command ejection - front/rear/both? This is simple binary logic, costing peanuts. Even before the Hawk was conceived, it must have been pencilled in as a Red Arrows aircraft so could potentially have had rear-seat passengers. It has been through multiple refits since birth. So how has this been overlooked?
But I have a simple question. Why don't all Hawks have an inbuilt selector switch for command ejection - front/rear/both? This is simple binary logic, costing peanuts. Even before the Hawk was conceived, it must have been pencilled in as a Red Arrows aircraft so could potentially have had rear-seat passengers. It has been through multiple refits since birth. So how has this been overlooked?
Perhaps, just perhaps, after all the years of experience in the team, they decided that experienced people could be in charge of their own destiny?
Let's wait for the SI to tell us whether or not the sink rate was outside the seat limits anyway.
As for "costing peanuts", aye right.
Why don't all Hawks have an inbuilt selector switch for command ejection - front/rear/both? This is simple binary logic,
This is binary? Definition must have changed!
This is binary? Definition must have changed!
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Join Date: Apr 2007
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I never knew Jon Bayliss personally, but a lot of my friends from my Colt days did as he started his career on 16(R). Seeing their tributes on social media is very humbling indeed, especially D-Reg's. 
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Answers to some earlier questions:
Q. Why isn’t the pilot in the back seat for passenger trips?
A. The front seat occupant needs to be competent at carrying out emergency drills because not all of the switches are duplicated in the back (the front seat has everything as the aircraft needs to be flyable solo). Students prove this in a lengthy sim package before being allowed to sit in the front.
Q. Do Reds passengers wear g-pants?
A. They didn’t use to, but they do now. They’re the internal ones that used to be worn underneath an immersion suit, so not very bulky at all and worn under the flying coverall to remove any risk of snagging. Changed sometime after the 2011 accidents during the first-principles review of all RAFAT activity.
Q. Why isn’t the pilot in the back seat for passenger trips?
A. The front seat occupant needs to be competent at carrying out emergency drills because not all of the switches are duplicated in the back (the front seat has everything as the aircraft needs to be flyable solo). Students prove this in a lengthy sim package before being allowed to sit in the front.
Q. Do Reds passengers wear g-pants?
A. They didn’t use to, but they do now. They’re the internal ones that used to be worn underneath an immersion suit, so not very bulky at all and worn under the flying coverall to remove any risk of snagging. Changed sometime after the 2011 accidents during the first-principles review of all RAFAT activity.
Some of you may recall the incident when one of the Blues ejected from a Red Arrows Hawk after a wire strike whilst flying over the Scottish Highlands. The pilot remained with the aircraft which landed safely at Inverness. According the the guy, he didn't wait for the pilot's call.
Some of you may remember the PFL Hawk crash at Chivenor in 92, in which a friend of mine from UAS days subsequently lost his life. He was in the back seat ,but was a fully qualified FJ pilot undergoing a TWI course I believe. The front seater went out but he didn't. The subsequent enquiry could not establish the reason why he did not eject, other than the possibilty he may not have realised until it was too late that the PFL had gone wrong and that after impact, he would probably have been unconscious. I am sure Corporal Bayliss would have been given a thorough briefing. The possibility that he was unaware until it was too late cannot be discounted. RIP.
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I did fly in a Tucano in the front seat. However as it was a basic trainer, all major controls were duplicated (with good reason). The only control I had to switch on was the anti col lights if memory serves, maybe the battery as well.
Join Date: Aug 2013
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Command Eject System Logics
Have wondered about the logic behind the Command Eject System in the Hawk T1.
I did my initial fast jet training on the Hawk Mk. 115 more then 15 years ago so I can't recall if its Command Eject System was rigged the same way as in the T1, but what is the logic behind the fact that the back-seat can command the front-seat but the front-seat can not command the back-seat?
In the F-16 our procedure is to have the system in AFT mode when both cockpits are occupied. When the Command Eject system is set to AFT, both the front and back-seat will command the other seat to go as well, in a sequence where the back-seat goes first (offset slightly to one side) and the front seat goes shortly after (offset slightly to the other side). This sequence will happen regardless of who pulls the handle and the seat that did not initiate the sequence will go even though it is not armed.
When we fly with both cockpits occupied, the system will be set to AFT but non-pilot pax will be instructed to keep their seat de-armed unless they can se the pilot is incapacitated. In that case they are instructed to arm the seat, fly the jet out over water (if able), slow down (if able) and initiate ejection. All this is briefed and trained in the sim before their ride and the pilot will also do a seat check/recap before the flight just to be sure that they know the procedure.
I have pasted in the 3 modes from the F-16 manual below:
• NORM -Activation of ejection system from rear cockpit results
in canopy jettison, then a .33-second delay
followed by only rear seat being ejected. Activation
of ejection system from forward cockpit following
rear seat ejection results in forward seat ejection.
-Activation of ejection system from forward cockpit
results in canopy jettison, a .33-second delay, aft
seat ejection, and a .4-second delay followed by
forward seat ejection.
• AFT -Activation of ejection system from either cockpit
results in canopy jettison, a .33-second delay, aft seat
ejection, and a .4-second delay followed by forward seat
ejection.
• SOLO - Activation of ejection system from forward
cockpit results in canopy jettison, then a .33-second delay
followed by only forward seat being ejected. Activation
of ejection system from aft cockpit results in
canopy jettison, then a .33-second delay followed by
only aft seat being ejected. Simultaneous activation from
forward and aft cockpits results in unsequenced ejections
In all modes except SOLO, which we use when only the front cockpit is occupied, front seat will always command back-seat to go first. Thats why I wonder why the Hawk T1 does not have that IMHO logical feature.
Sincerest condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
I did my initial fast jet training on the Hawk Mk. 115 more then 15 years ago so I can't recall if its Command Eject System was rigged the same way as in the T1, but what is the logic behind the fact that the back-seat can command the front-seat but the front-seat can not command the back-seat?
In the F-16 our procedure is to have the system in AFT mode when both cockpits are occupied. When the Command Eject system is set to AFT, both the front and back-seat will command the other seat to go as well, in a sequence where the back-seat goes first (offset slightly to one side) and the front seat goes shortly after (offset slightly to the other side). This sequence will happen regardless of who pulls the handle and the seat that did not initiate the sequence will go even though it is not armed.
When we fly with both cockpits occupied, the system will be set to AFT but non-pilot pax will be instructed to keep their seat de-armed unless they can se the pilot is incapacitated. In that case they are instructed to arm the seat, fly the jet out over water (if able), slow down (if able) and initiate ejection. All this is briefed and trained in the sim before their ride and the pilot will also do a seat check/recap before the flight just to be sure that they know the procedure.
I have pasted in the 3 modes from the F-16 manual below:
• NORM -Activation of ejection system from rear cockpit results
in canopy jettison, then a .33-second delay
followed by only rear seat being ejected. Activation
of ejection system from forward cockpit following
rear seat ejection results in forward seat ejection.
-Activation of ejection system from forward cockpit
results in canopy jettison, a .33-second delay, aft
seat ejection, and a .4-second delay followed by
forward seat ejection.
• AFT -Activation of ejection system from either cockpit
results in canopy jettison, a .33-second delay, aft seat
ejection, and a .4-second delay followed by forward seat
ejection.
• SOLO - Activation of ejection system from forward
cockpit results in canopy jettison, then a .33-second delay
followed by only forward seat being ejected. Activation
of ejection system from aft cockpit results in
canopy jettison, then a .33-second delay followed by
only aft seat being ejected. Simultaneous activation from
forward and aft cockpits results in unsequenced ejections
In all modes except SOLO, which we use when only the front cockpit is occupied, front seat will always command back-seat to go first. Thats why I wonder why the Hawk T1 does not have that IMHO logical feature.
Sincerest condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
The reasoning given above is:
because the front seat is mostly occupied by a student under instruction in the Hawk.
The student in the hawk will not be as advanced as in a two seat viper.
because the front seat is mostly occupied by a student under instruction in the Hawk.
The student in the hawk will not be as advanced as in a two seat viper.
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Still does not make sense IMHO. How will the system in the Hawk work in a situation where the front seat student pulls the handle a split second before the instructor pulls his in the back? Will they have sequencing or do they risk post ejection collision and burns to the back-seater?
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Not much winds me up but the Daily Fail have, in my mind, well and truly crossed the line with their publication today photos by an amateur photographer showing the crash unfolding. Not sure if other rags have published the same, very poor taste on both parts, not surprising for the Fail though.
One of the amateur photos purports to show the crash aircraft returning after take off and while the main wheels appear to be down the nose wheel does not. Or is that the nose wheel and the Port main wheel is masked?
Was the shot taken at a particular point while the gear was being cycled? Maybe Hawk drivers could comment.
Was the shot taken at a particular point while the gear was being cycled? Maybe Hawk drivers could comment.
Gnome de PPRuNe
I think the nosewheel is down siti, it's just in line with the left main leg. Look at the left main wheel, it's an odd shape.
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Some of you may recall the incident when one of the Blues ejected from a Red Arrows Hawk after a wire strike whilst flying over the Scottish Highlands. The pilot remained with the aircraft which landed safely at Inverness. According the the guy, he didn't wait for the pilot's call.
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Most aircrew I've met in my life are pragmatists schooled in the University of Hard Knocks.
So let's live in the real world people shall we?
By way of example, one of the off-duty Nimrod crewmates in Toronto was introduced to the unfolding events on a TV screen on his way to take The Telephone Call. That's how it happens these days.
Getting bent out of shape because photographs appear in the media pretty promptly is basically a denial of the world we live in...whether we like it or not.
So let's live in the real world people shall we?
By way of example, one of the off-duty Nimrod crewmates in Toronto was introduced to the unfolding events on a TV screen on his way to take The Telephone Call. That's how it happens these days.
Getting bent out of shape because photographs appear in the media pretty promptly is basically a denial of the world we live in...whether we like it or not.
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21 April 1983 I was a member of the RAF SAR Sea King crew that picked up the injured engineer after he ejected near Fort Augustus. I believe the team were on a low level transit and this aircraft managed to hit wires about 40 feet agl (measured later by Sea King Rad Alt!). At that height I think the passenger was prudent to self eject rather than wait to hear if the pilot decided they should leave. Unfortunately he sustained fractures/dislocations to both knees and elbows, if my memory serves me correctly after 35 years. After dropping the injured crewman at Inverness hospital we flew back via Inverness airfield and I took a photo of the Hawk, looking rather strange with the post sticking out of the rear cockpit.
