INCIDENT AT VALLEY
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Originally Posted by H Peacock
Great if the caravan controller isn't confused by the Hawk nose light and spots you're gear up, but the blame for landing gear-up is very squarely with the driver! LOI is about as basic as it gets in an RAF cockpit. Not saying it doesn't happen, but please dont try to shift the blame! Furthermore, if you're doing an airtest then you must understand every aspect and potential pitfall.
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As an ex RWC you can rest assured that in my day missing a wheels up, would have resulted in harsh action. The Leuchars F4, 84ish that touched down without the dangly bits, rolled and landed with the correct bits in the right order? The Controller saw the wheels were up, but apparantly "froze." They certainly never worked in a Runway Caravan again. Yes its the drivers responsibility, but missing a wheels up from the RWC is unforgivable.
'Gear up' approaches were occasionally authorised for specific checking of the runway caravan controller. Back in 1982 I was on a dual night check with Thrombo at Supholk's Phinest Phighter aerodrome and we were authorised for the check.
After rolling out on final during one of several circuits, there was an immediate reaction and red verey from the caravan - the controller was most certainly on the ball! No time for a Hadley box call to the local controller to advise us to check gear, just an instinctive and correct response.
I'm very surprised that the gear up Hawk wasn't spotted at Cranwell, particularly given that Hawk flying wasn't that much of a routine event at Cranwell.
After rolling out on final during one of several circuits, there was an immediate reaction and red verey from the caravan - the controller was most certainly on the ball! No time for a Hadley box call to the local controller to advise us to check gear, just an instinctive and correct response.
I'm very surprised that the gear up Hawk wasn't spotted at Cranwell, particularly given that Hawk flying wasn't that much of a routine event at Cranwell.
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Indeed Beagle. At Leuchars a practice gear up approach was a requirement before you were checked out in the van. Runway controllers are the last check on things that others should have done or seen was the way my trainer described it to me. If a red very was required, I fired it first and then called Local to explain why. Latterly we had 2 way comms, fitted because of the F4 chute candling issue, this was good news, because both times i fired a red very in anger i set the grass on fire!
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Originally Posted by Skeleton
Indeed Beagle. At Leuchars a practice gear up approach was a requirement before you were checked out in the van. Runway controllers are the last check on things that others should have done or seen was the way my trainer described it to me.
I was told as well that the RWC was an SAC rather than a Cpl. Not saying that an SAC isn't up to the job but back in days of yore the reason a Cpl was in the van was to ensure a bit of experience and to hopefully ensure he/she had the maturity to act or make the call- even if in doubt.
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Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but the RWC was/is an extra layer of safety, not a guaranteed layer of safety. Line-up the holes and.......
PapaDolmio, if the RWC failed to do the job he was trained to do, then so did the pilot. But that discussion would be too aligned with just culture and modern safety principles. Personally, with my Safety Manager's hat on, I would also drag-in the aircraft manufacturer to explain why they had created a system that could lead to HF issues.
Of course, we could also have the discussion about how often the RWC safety layer has prevented mishaps, but that isn't a 'sexy' discussion.
PapaDolmio, if the RWC failed to do the job he was trained to do, then so did the pilot. But that discussion would be too aligned with just culture and modern safety principles. Personally, with my Safety Manager's hat on, I would also drag-in the aircraft manufacturer to explain why they had created a system that could lead to HF issues.
Of course, we could also have the discussion about how often the RWC safety layer has prevented mishaps, but that isn't a 'sexy' discussion.
IIRC Runway caravans were withdrawn from use in RAFG in the 60s. However, shortly after Bill Langworthy (RIP) and 'ShadowSheen demonstrated why the Jaguar didn't actually need wheels (rear end strakes and/or recce pods work quite well), they were rapidly reinstated. I was CFI at TRGC Laarbruch at the time and my Glider launch point control truck (Vintage 1950s?) was commandeered as a RWC caravan until 'they' found a suitable vehicle. We did all right in the end as we got an electrical rewire throughout. Bolt, horses, doors after, closing?
As an aside Laarbruch also had a hardened sunken cupola at each end of the runway with a blister just above ground. It was seldom used other than on exercises. As DI staff it was always a good wheeze to check out who was hiding there and accept their bribes of cups of tea.
As an aside Laarbruch also had a hardened sunken cupola at each end of the runway with a blister just above ground. It was seldom used other than on exercises. As DI staff it was always a good wheeze to check out who was hiding there and accept their bribes of cups of tea.
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Originally Posted by MPN11
I'm sure it may have changed at one stage, but the RWC was required to be a cpl in my time on airfields.
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As an ex RWC and Controller, yes the RWC had some blame, as did the Pilot, the Local Controller , the Ground Controller and even the ADC Assistant. It is a team effort, if memory serves responsibilities of an Aerodrome Controller 'responsible for aircraft, vehicles and persons on the manoeuvring area' amongst other responsibilities. I believe several lessons were learned from the Cranwell incident but bottom line, the gear wasn't down.
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Classy photo from the RAFAT. I was with friends today and this subject was discussed. One friend knew Jon and another was not a million miles away from the topic. We are adults of course and have opinions but the service enquiry will reveal all the factual evidence. Thats my take. Ad Astra Jon.
