Serious UAS Question
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Serious UAS Question
OK Guys - this may seem one of those bitter & twisted questions from a non-grad but.....
How many UAS 'cadets' go on to join the RAF? Serious question really - I see so many cuts, mis-spends etc and I'm wondering what value for money we get from a drinking & flying club?
I know there is a lot of flying training taking place on the UAS now, but is it VFM?
How many UAS 'cadets' go on to join the RAF? Serious question really - I see so many cuts, mis-spends etc and I'm wondering what value for money we get from a drinking & flying club?
I know there is a lot of flying training taking place on the UAS now, but is it VFM?
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Mr C
Iwas a UAS student at Woodvale years ago, and it certainly was a good drinking/social/flying club. I think about 10-20% of us ended up in the RAF, of course we would have joined anyway UAS or not.
Is it value for money, probably not. Furthermore, the UASs do take quite a few operational pilots out of the system.
Still, someone must have done the sums?
Iwas a UAS student at Woodvale years ago, and it certainly was a good drinking/social/flying club. I think about 10-20% of us ended up in the RAF, of course we would have joined anyway UAS or not.
Is it value for money, probably not. Furthermore, the UASs do take quite a few operational pilots out of the system.
Still, someone must have done the sums?
The bean counters have cut so much of the 'fun' element from the UAS world and increased the pressure on the average youngster wanting to try and get a good degree so much that anyone serious about a career as a FJ pilot would be better off waiting until after University to apply for the RAF. Well - that's what i was told by a current UAS boss!
Back in the dreaded 'Aerocrat' era, most of us were UAS APOs and were paid roughly twice what a normal student would get as a university grant. We wore 'real' uniform - no white bands or tabs - and had full officer status. Our primary task was to get a degree, the UAS was NOT to interfere with our progress. There was no formal streaming and even with PIFG and PFB we only saved the RAF about 15 hours from the excellent JP 'wings' course then in place. Plus, of course, there were many more UAS aredromes around then.
Nowadays there are virtually no financial benefits in being a UAS 'bursar' - and the cost of living at university takes a bigger chunk out of any money a student might have, so they have to find other paid work as well. But they have to travel further to their aerodrome and they have to perform sufficiently well to be streamed for FJ if that's what they want. Try doing that when you're doing something like Aero Eng at Impossible College, London!
But if you join after university, you'll do IOT and then have a good time at the DE flight at a UAS if you're lucky, otherwise JEFTS. The course is slightly shorter but the continuity is vastly better - and you wdon't have to worry about the academic work required for a degree!
I would advise anyone wanting to become involved with the military at university to join the OTC, have a good time, then apply to the RAF after Finals!
Shame - the old UAS system provided a very cost-effective stream of pilots and paid for itself easily. But the wretched bean counters have ruined it for ever.
Back in the dreaded 'Aerocrat' era, most of us were UAS APOs and were paid roughly twice what a normal student would get as a university grant. We wore 'real' uniform - no white bands or tabs - and had full officer status. Our primary task was to get a degree, the UAS was NOT to interfere with our progress. There was no formal streaming and even with PIFG and PFB we only saved the RAF about 15 hours from the excellent JP 'wings' course then in place. Plus, of course, there were many more UAS aredromes around then.
Nowadays there are virtually no financial benefits in being a UAS 'bursar' - and the cost of living at university takes a bigger chunk out of any money a student might have, so they have to find other paid work as well. But they have to travel further to their aerodrome and they have to perform sufficiently well to be streamed for FJ if that's what they want. Try doing that when you're doing something like Aero Eng at Impossible College, London!
But if you join after university, you'll do IOT and then have a good time at the DE flight at a UAS if you're lucky, otherwise JEFTS. The course is slightly shorter but the continuity is vastly better - and you wdon't have to worry about the academic work required for a degree!
I would advise anyone wanting to become involved with the military at university to join the OTC, have a good time, then apply to the RAF after Finals!
Shame - the old UAS system provided a very cost-effective stream of pilots and paid for itself easily. But the wretched bean counters have ruined it for ever.
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iot
just to point out that even if you do join a uas you still have to do iot. and its soon to be increased to 36 weeks. personally as an ex regular airman i can see no justification for keeping the uas's or the aefs. i would issue every station with 2 or 3 of the tutors for hack aircraft and atc flying. and any undergraduate who wished to join the raf would have to leave uni to do iot and would then go back to uni after iot. i think ive lit the blue touch paper!
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Blue touch paper....not really. Just further confirmed that you're a knob.
(shift key is the dark grey one on the left, second one up...useful for things like UAS, ATC and RAF)
(shift key is the dark grey one on the left, second one up...useful for things like UAS, ATC and RAF)
As they used to say:
100 IF NAME$=canberra THEN GOTO 300 ELSE GOTO 200
200 READ POST
300 END
ifyoucantfindtheshiftkeyorlearntopunctuateproperlythenplease bug.geroff!
100 IF NAME$=canberra THEN GOTO 300 ELSE GOTO 200
200 READ POST
300 END
ifyoucantfindtheshiftkeyorlearntopunctuateproperlythenplease bug.geroff!
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Whilst it pains me to find myself in agreement with Beagle in not one but two current posts, He’s absolutely correct. The UAS system has been ruined for nil gain in an effort to appear value for money. Any potential undergraduate should think long and hard about joining a UAS. He or she will have to contend with completing their EFT, a degree course and these days probably having to work in a part time job to keep them off the streets. When they then go to OASC with a glowing UAS report, reflecting their excellent aptitude as a pilot they will then face the chance of being turned away for lacking ‘breadth of interest’ and having poor results in a computer based aptitude test.
If they join after Uni they can concentrate on completing their EFT without any of the distractions which a UAS student has to contend with. After all we need people who can see the easy route to success.
Mr C Hinecap – well your reference to a flying and drinking club show you to be an open-minded individual. However by way of anecdotal evidence of the effectiveness of the old UAS system:
Fourteen of us leapfrogged our way down to the recruiting office and into the RAF in my year. This was at a time when airlines were desperately trying too recruit direct entry pilots.
My BFT course of twelve were all ex UAS - all but one now wear wings, the majority of them fast jet pilots. We did have a direct entrant who joined us after failing his first groundschool but he didn’t solo despite his OASC aptitude scores.
OK so these are anecdotal but the stats at the time showed that the volunteer reserve members' success rate in reaching a fast jet cockpit was something like 33% compared to something in the low teens for direct entrants. The meagre cost of running the UASs for the year was easily recouped in the money saved in later training.
The bottom line is that I wouldn’t join a UAS now (as if they’d have me!) but the old system was worth keeping.
‘Better by far for Jonnie bright star to ditch the UAS and join the Theatre Club.’
If they join after Uni they can concentrate on completing their EFT without any of the distractions which a UAS student has to contend with. After all we need people who can see the easy route to success.
Mr C Hinecap – well your reference to a flying and drinking club show you to be an open-minded individual. However by way of anecdotal evidence of the effectiveness of the old UAS system:
Fourteen of us leapfrogged our way down to the recruiting office and into the RAF in my year. This was at a time when airlines were desperately trying too recruit direct entry pilots.
My BFT course of twelve were all ex UAS - all but one now wear wings, the majority of them fast jet pilots. We did have a direct entrant who joined us after failing his first groundschool but he didn’t solo despite his OASC aptitude scores.
OK so these are anecdotal but the stats at the time showed that the volunteer reserve members' success rate in reaching a fast jet cockpit was something like 33% compared to something in the low teens for direct entrants. The meagre cost of running the UASs for the year was easily recouped in the money saved in later training.
The bottom line is that I wouldn’t join a UAS now (as if they’d have me!) but the old system was worth keeping.
‘Better by far for Jonnie bright star to ditch the UAS and join the Theatre Club.’
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Isn’t part of the role of the University Air Squadrons to introduce the RAF to our future political, business and scientific leaders? With university attendance increasing it could be argued that we need more UASs.
On the other matter I wonder if canberra paid the same attention to detail when addressing flight plans as he does to his posts?
On the other matter I wonder if canberra paid the same attention to detail when addressing flight plans as he does to his posts?
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I agree with Beagle and most of the other comments about the state of the UAS system at the moment. I studied Aero Eng at "Impossible College" London and was also a member of the UAS, joining in 95. The system then was in the midst of its transformation from a no pressure intro. to the airforce, into the mini EFT that we have now.I found it very difficult with my course workload to devote the required amount of time to my flying, and it made it tougher than it should have been. I don't have any figures to hand but I'd say probably 10-20% of the guys I knew (including myself) are now in the airforce in flying posts. There were also a notable number of characters who were asked to leave after 2yrs because they weren't making sufficient progress under the new EFT style syllabus but are now RAF pilots.
I totally agree that unless you are really doing 3hrs a week on a basket weaving course at Nowhere Uni, don't bother with the UAS- apply direct just before/once you've graduated- you can then concentrate fully on flying and give it your best shot.
I believe the old system was partly there to acquaint future Captains of Industry with the RAF and make them feel less inclined to complain about us spending their taxes. I don't think that is the case any more. It has replaced EFT in all but name and in doing so much of the fun element has been eradicated.
Canberra - You insist on making "wise old Sage" type comments on topics you seem to have no real knowledge of. A few other posts have made similar comments recently as well. Can you take a hint? Or is your poor language and spelling an attempt to disguise the fact that you indeed are Admin Guru?
I totally agree that unless you are really doing 3hrs a week on a basket weaving course at Nowhere Uni, don't bother with the UAS- apply direct just before/once you've graduated- you can then concentrate fully on flying and give it your best shot.
I believe the old system was partly there to acquaint future Captains of Industry with the RAF and make them feel less inclined to complain about us spending their taxes. I don't think that is the case any more. It has replaced EFT in all but name and in doing so much of the fun element has been eradicated.
Canberra - You insist on making "wise old Sage" type comments on topics you seem to have no real knowledge of. A few other posts have made similar comments recently as well. Can you take a hint? Or is your poor language and spelling an attempt to disguise the fact that you indeed are Admin Guru?
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Molesworth
Lets face it - our current political masters need more than a UAS introduction to what we do!! I just wonder what good a UAS Stude gets from having his pockets removed by a jockey from the hosting unit?????? High spirits = good, but hmmmmmm...
Here's another thought - what about a 3-yr degree at a military College? I know Cranners used to do this years ago - I remember going to the Dutch Military Academy for sport when I was on IOT - it was a superb setup there - everyone studying together - different subjects and Army & Air Force together - seemed to breed a great esprit de corps and overall good start to life.
It seems the Army takes its further development & education of its Officers more seriously than we do - surely with 'Jointery' we could all benefit from an equal, professional start???
At the thread in front of you - go on.
Lets face it - our current political masters need more than a UAS introduction to what we do!! I just wonder what good a UAS Stude gets from having his pockets removed by a jockey from the hosting unit?????? High spirits = good, but hmmmmmm...
Here's another thought - what about a 3-yr degree at a military College? I know Cranners used to do this years ago - I remember going to the Dutch Military Academy for sport when I was on IOT - it was a superb setup there - everyone studying together - different subjects and Army & Air Force together - seemed to breed a great esprit de corps and overall good start to life.
It seems the Army takes its further development & education of its Officers more seriously than we do - surely with 'Jointery' we could all benefit from an equal, professional start???
At the thread in front of you - go on.
Good idea - but who would pay for it?
This idea was mooted back in the late 1960s - but never got anywhere. I seem to remember that Shrivenham was going to be the location for the Tri-Service University; funny how things turn out, now it's an adult literacy centre for aspirant staff officers!
This idea was mooted back in the late 1960s - but never got anywhere. I seem to remember that Shrivenham was going to be the location for the Tri-Service University; funny how things turn out, now it's an adult literacy centre for aspirant staff officers!
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In many I respects I agree that the UAS world 'ain't what it used to be'!
I was a stude in the 80s and a QFI in the 90s - both probably the most fun I have ever had with my trousers on (mostly). Also, I was lucky enough to instruct before and after the 'streaming' task was forced on us. During my time I was fortunate enough to have the pleasure of being taught by some of the Service's best and also fortunate enough to help some stars of the future overcome PFLs and Prince of Waleses.
However, I would say that the one of the main reasons for having the UASs is purely practical - based on historical success rates at AFT.
As a QFI one of my bug-bears was OASC turning down excellent pilots and budding Ocifers on the grounds of aptitude scores! I am also sure I am not alone in my dustrust of OASC but I was also lucky to have an inside track when I did a bit of digging.
To cut a long story short, a number of CAM/Farnborough/DERA studies based on very dubious statistics 'proved' that aptitude scores above a certain value lead to an 85% pass rate at
BF(J)TS. However, a study carried out in the late 90s by HQ PTC (my old UAS Boss carried it out, it so it is not bollox) showed that a UAS-trained stude, assessed as high-average or better, stood a 95% chance of passing TWU and getting to a FJ OCU - quite an impressive record I would say! That is why the UASs were given a stay of execution in the late 90s!
I am not aware how much flex studes are given these days nor how much autonomy OCs and CFIs are given. But I would like to think that common sense still plays a part in the UAS AFT!?
I also tried to use the PTC study to sidestep OASC but when I asked PTC for a copy of the report, they clammed up and said I wasn't entitled to that information and so OASC still rule the roost wrt to aptitude tests - b.gger!
As for VFM - I dunno, but whatever the UAS system costs, it still recruits the RAF a lot of super blokes and gals through the VR system so it definitely worth keeping.
Lastly, my advice to someone who wants to join the RAF through a UAS is still - DO IT! However, try to leave the the more technically demanding stuff until you can get continuity at Camps or even after finals as your first aim must be to get a degree, whether you are sponsored or not!
I was a stude in the 80s and a QFI in the 90s - both probably the most fun I have ever had with my trousers on (mostly). Also, I was lucky enough to instruct before and after the 'streaming' task was forced on us. During my time I was fortunate enough to have the pleasure of being taught by some of the Service's best and also fortunate enough to help some stars of the future overcome PFLs and Prince of Waleses.
However, I would say that the one of the main reasons for having the UASs is purely practical - based on historical success rates at AFT.
As a QFI one of my bug-bears was OASC turning down excellent pilots and budding Ocifers on the grounds of aptitude scores! I am also sure I am not alone in my dustrust of OASC but I was also lucky to have an inside track when I did a bit of digging.
To cut a long story short, a number of CAM/Farnborough/DERA studies based on very dubious statistics 'proved' that aptitude scores above a certain value lead to an 85% pass rate at
BF(J)TS. However, a study carried out in the late 90s by HQ PTC (my old UAS Boss carried it out, it so it is not bollox) showed that a UAS-trained stude, assessed as high-average or better, stood a 95% chance of passing TWU and getting to a FJ OCU - quite an impressive record I would say! That is why the UASs were given a stay of execution in the late 90s!
I am not aware how much flex studes are given these days nor how much autonomy OCs and CFIs are given. But I would like to think that common sense still plays a part in the UAS AFT!?
I also tried to use the PTC study to sidestep OASC but when I asked PTC for a copy of the report, they clammed up and said I wasn't entitled to that information and so OASC still rule the roost wrt to aptitude tests - b.gger!
As for VFM - I dunno, but whatever the UAS system costs, it still recruits the RAF a lot of super blokes and gals through the VR system so it definitely worth keeping.
Lastly, my advice to someone who wants to join the RAF through a UAS is still - DO IT! However, try to leave the the more technically demanding stuff until you can get continuity at Camps or even after finals as your first aim must be to get a degree, whether you are sponsored or not!
UAS VALUE
In an average year, the UASs recruit about 300 new members. For the last couple of years, they have produced about 90 pilots into IOT (after EFT) and about 70 potential officers for other branches, a total of 160, so over half the number coming in. In addition, they now train 36 direct entrant pilots a year, and next year they will also take on the 55 a year trained so far by JEFTS, plus the overseas students.
Whether this represents value for money has been studied continuously, probably since Trenchard started it all in 1925. The Defence Costs Study (DCS), Defence Training Review (DTR) and a recent National Audit Office study all confirmed that it is a good way to do business. A very new TGDA study, yet to be published, is likely to say the same. Historically, more ex-UAS students than direct entrants made it through to the fast jet front line, but some levelling of the playing field makes this less evident now.
While "spreading air-mindedness" was the primary aim in 1925, it has slipped to 4th place in the formal list of objectives for UASs, but it is arguably more important than ever, now that so few of the population have any military experience. The RN and Army university units do even less Service recruiting than UASs, but are still seen as being worthwhile.
The flying and drinking clubs are, like it or not, a thing of the past (though there's still fun to be had out there). So now it's a personal choice of the best route to your dream cockpit. Some will do better through the UAS, others not.
Whether this represents value for money has been studied continuously, probably since Trenchard started it all in 1925. The Defence Costs Study (DCS), Defence Training Review (DTR) and a recent National Audit Office study all confirmed that it is a good way to do business. A very new TGDA study, yet to be published, is likely to say the same. Historically, more ex-UAS students than direct entrants made it through to the fast jet front line, but some levelling of the playing field makes this less evident now.
While "spreading air-mindedness" was the primary aim in 1925, it has slipped to 4th place in the formal list of objectives for UASs, but it is arguably more important than ever, now that so few of the population have any military experience. The RN and Army university units do even less Service recruiting than UASs, but are still seen as being worthwhile.
The flying and drinking clubs are, like it or not, a thing of the past (though there's still fun to be had out there). So now it's a personal choice of the best route to your dream cockpit. Some will do better through the UAS, others not.
Last edited by noprobs; 15th Jul 2002 at 15:55.
You don't have to save many Tucano and Hawk hours to more than pay for the UAS system. That must still be true.
Moreover, the enormous value of the UASs in winning friends among "future political, business and scientific leaders" is incalculable!
I mean, I'm only one ex-UAS journo who fights the RAF's corner 'cos I still feel I owe it for the many fun Bulldog hours and great fun times it gave me back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. And there are others. And those of my UAS year who didn't join all went on to become ardent supporters and evangelists for the RAF and defence spending - some of whom now qualify for the title of "future political, business and scientific leaders".
Sad to hear that on an individual basis the UASs might actually do someone's RAF career harm. Hard to believe, but I guess it's a very different world.
Moreover, the enormous value of the UASs in winning friends among "future political, business and scientific leaders" is incalculable!
I mean, I'm only one ex-UAS journo who fights the RAF's corner 'cos I still feel I owe it for the many fun Bulldog hours and great fun times it gave me back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. And there are others. And those of my UAS year who didn't join all went on to become ardent supporters and evangelists for the RAF and defence spending - some of whom now qualify for the title of "future political, business and scientific leaders".
Sad to hear that on an individual basis the UASs might actually do someone's RAF career harm. Hard to believe, but I guess it's a very different world.
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Another point to note about the UAS system is that as well as helping to select descent potential officers for the RAF, it also helps to "weed out" people who are completely unsuitable. People who cannot spell or punctuate, for example. Also the Top Gun groupies who introduce themselves as Maverick and then puke up on trip one.
During my time, I met several folks who were initally keen to pursue a career in the RAF but after even the limited amount of exposure that being a UAS cadet offers, decided that it wasn't actually what they wanted. And then left. That saves on the cost of sending someone through training post IOT earning £20000 per annum when it can be done pre-IOT for cheep beer and a free lunch once per week.
So anyway, in response to the original thread, I think that UASs represents good value for money in the big scheme of things. For each pilot that joins, the saving in pay alone must be >£10,000. About the same for someone not starting IOT when they are obviously not suitable.
During my time, I met several folks who were initally keen to pursue a career in the RAF but after even the limited amount of exposure that being a UAS cadet offers, decided that it wasn't actually what they wanted. And then left. That saves on the cost of sending someone through training post IOT earning £20000 per annum when it can be done pre-IOT for cheep beer and a free lunch once per week.
So anyway, in response to the original thread, I think that UASs represents good value for money in the big scheme of things. For each pilot that joins, the saving in pay alone must be >£10,000. About the same for someone not starting IOT when they are obviously not suitable.
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I quite frankly had to post a reply, as i could not believe the amount of whining/complaining about UAS's on this thread. I went to a good uni and studied civil engineering, which involved 36hrs a week plus labs. I went to the squadron every weekend and for the summer/easter camps. I easily finished the course and then some, got a good degree and had the time of my life. I made some of my best friends through the UAS, drank till I bled and shagged till it was raw. Also whilst I was there 4 JEFTS studes did their cse on my UAS and i believe this still occurs on a regular basis. In terms of people getting into the RAF, it was only the OASC idiots who turned away the highly motivated and able people. Do they really think they know a person better in 4 days than the staff who've known them for 2/3 years and flown with them to boot. If there is any wastage on the UAS it's turning away the good eggs found. In my year there were seven of us who are now in and i'm front line at a very respectable age thanks to the system. UAS is a very cost effective and blindingly good fun system, may it stay forever!
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I think graduates doing JEFTS just slows things down.
You get pilots arriving on the front line an extra year older (due to extra holding and the course itself) and so giving a year less return if they stay to 38/16. How much is that worth x 100? Remember what we're short of?
UAS students also get paid much less than flying officers.
90 hours at a civvy club would cost less than the salary for 6 months....
Personally, I think that UAS's are good value, but I also agree that there is a lot of pressure to fly rather than study. At the harder universities (where I was) 50+ study hours a week was the norm for those that were aiming for 2:1 or better.
Saying that, I think any advice to not join the UAS is wrong.
Now, I'm sure some are thinking, "why have graduates?"
Answers on a postcard to.......
You get pilots arriving on the front line an extra year older (due to extra holding and the course itself) and so giving a year less return if they stay to 38/16. How much is that worth x 100? Remember what we're short of?
UAS students also get paid much less than flying officers.
90 hours at a civvy club would cost less than the salary for 6 months....
Personally, I think that UAS's are good value, but I also agree that there is a lot of pressure to fly rather than study. At the harder universities (where I was) 50+ study hours a week was the norm for those that were aiming for 2:1 or better.
Saying that, I think any advice to not join the UAS is wrong.
Now, I'm sure some are thinking, "why have graduates?"
Answers on a postcard to.......
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Getupah
Why on earth aim for a 2:1 or higher???
I spent 90-93 at Uni, on a cadetship, had a great time on the UAS, loads of flying, loads of drinking, as much womanising as possible, scraped an ordinary BSc(JUST) degree, and still went to IOT with all the rest and got the accelerated promotion.
I'm now lots older, still flying, and don't regret it all for a second.
Work only as hard as you need to, and play much harder.
Why on earth aim for a 2:1 or higher???
I spent 90-93 at Uni, on a cadetship, had a great time on the UAS, loads of flying, loads of drinking, as much womanising as possible, scraped an ordinary BSc(JUST) degree, and still went to IOT with all the rest and got the accelerated promotion.
I'm now lots older, still flying, and don't regret it all for a second.
Work only as hard as you need to, and play much harder.
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Where else would you hear such classic tunes such as the 'Tampax Factory' and the 'Horrible Song' sung with such aplomb by a bunch of drunken idiots. The regular Officers in training on our station were jealous of what we got away with and how much fun we had. Much more than just flying. Survival exercises, lecture nights and regular frontline Sqn attachments all made my life easier when I went to IOT/BFT.
I have two words to say to all you doubters. Nurses Parties!
Yorkshire Boys, make more noise OOH, AH, OOH OOH AH!
I have two words to say to all you doubters. Nurses Parties!
Yorkshire Boys, make more noise OOH, AH, OOH OOH AH!
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I may be old-fashioned, but if I were on the Board at OASC and a graduate presented himself as an aspiring pilot, I would ask him if he had been a member of his UAS. He would need to give a very convincing reason for not having joined, if I were not to question his motivation.