Serious UAS Question
Pilot Officer PPRuNe
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To say that there is pressure on students at a UAS to fly rather than work for their degree is quite wrong. We are very careful to ensure that university work comes first. There are times when we will ask students to attend more, but this is out of term time.
Why do we want graduates? I cannot answer that, particularly as someone who entered straight from school, but we do produce a great deal of the entrants to IOT. Unfortunately or success is only measured on the number of pilots we produce, but we get a great deal of others into IOT from other branches as well. OASC do supprise sometimes with those they turn down, but most come as no suprise at all.
I am sure the system is not perfect, but its not bad.
Tonks
Why do we want graduates? I cannot answer that, particularly as someone who entered straight from school, but we do produce a great deal of the entrants to IOT. Unfortunately or success is only measured on the number of pilots we produce, but we get a great deal of others into IOT from other branches as well. OASC do supprise sometimes with those they turn down, but most come as no suprise at all.
I am sure the system is not perfect, but its not bad.
Tonks
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Sadly Flatus you are not on a board at OASC.
We had guys who were really keen, bloody good and not members of the theatre club (but had clocked up a large proportion of their EFT) who were criticised for lacking ‘breadth of interest’. Given the demands we now place on UAS students I’d say they weren’t taking their flying seriously if they did have time to do a raft of other stuff plus a degree.
Seriously OASC – another planet.
We had guys who were really keen, bloody good and not members of the theatre club (but had clocked up a large proportion of their EFT) who were criticised for lacking ‘breadth of interest’. Given the demands we now place on UAS students I’d say they weren’t taking their flying seriously if they did have time to do a raft of other stuff plus a degree.
Seriously OASC – another planet.
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Value for money?
It depends how you calculate 'value'.
We had a few people who started as VR pilots and, during their time on ULAS, applied for commissions and went on to become RAF pilots. I almost did, but in those days it was 38/16 or nothing and I had other career plans for the long-term. Short service commissions weren't an option until later. In simple recruiting terms, the vfm may be marginal.
But I've always understood recruitment is only one of the reasons behind the RAF's generosity. The other is to try to make 'friends' of people who will remain sympathetic / loyal towards the services in whatever sphere they move and work later. If that's correct, all I can say is it certainly worked with me.
I didn't go into politics so haven't had any direct input but, when speaking to friends who are politicians, I never miss an opportunity to promote the importnace of the RAF and my views on the defence budget generally. Do my comments have any influence on them? I don't know - difficult to tell with politicians even when they're friends!
But I'm just one - don't under-estimate the cumulative effect of all the Cadet Pilots over the years, whether they speak to politicans directly or in general conversation with friends and colleagues.
The RAF needs friends in the civvy world, as well as the APOs who "wore 'real' uniform - no white bands or tabs - and had full officer status."
BEagle!! I thought it was lawyers who were meant to be pompous old farts.
There was nobody to see us when we walked around RAF White Waltham all those years ago. The only difference was the horse-hair VR uniforms made us lesser mortals itch!
Alright, I admit it - the VR uniforms were very embarrassing when we went on summer camps to an operational station!
Value for money?
A firm 'Yes' as far as this tax-payer is concerned.
Cadet Pilot Tudor Owen
ULAS 1971 - 1973
(and still proud of it!)
(Edit)
Just wanted to add I'm not convinced by this argument about conflict between flying and work. No undergrad spends all his time working, unless he's very thick. You have a choice. Studying and sport/the Union bar, or studying and flying at the Squadron. I read law at King's College London which was reputed to be a very demanding course. I still managed to get a decent degree and use all my allocation of UAS hours - and a few more.
It depends how you calculate 'value'.
We had a few people who started as VR pilots and, during their time on ULAS, applied for commissions and went on to become RAF pilots. I almost did, but in those days it was 38/16 or nothing and I had other career plans for the long-term. Short service commissions weren't an option until later. In simple recruiting terms, the vfm may be marginal.
But I've always understood recruitment is only one of the reasons behind the RAF's generosity. The other is to try to make 'friends' of people who will remain sympathetic / loyal towards the services in whatever sphere they move and work later. If that's correct, all I can say is it certainly worked with me.
I didn't go into politics so haven't had any direct input but, when speaking to friends who are politicians, I never miss an opportunity to promote the importnace of the RAF and my views on the defence budget generally. Do my comments have any influence on them? I don't know - difficult to tell with politicians even when they're friends!
But I'm just one - don't under-estimate the cumulative effect of all the Cadet Pilots over the years, whether they speak to politicans directly or in general conversation with friends and colleagues.
The RAF needs friends in the civvy world, as well as the APOs who "wore 'real' uniform - no white bands or tabs - and had full officer status."
BEagle!! I thought it was lawyers who were meant to be pompous old farts.
There was nobody to see us when we walked around RAF White Waltham all those years ago. The only difference was the horse-hair VR uniforms made us lesser mortals itch!Alright, I admit it - the VR uniforms were very embarrassing when we went on summer camps to an operational station!
Value for money?
A firm 'Yes' as far as this tax-payer is concerned.
Cadet Pilot Tudor Owen
ULAS 1971 - 1973
(and still proud of it!)
(Edit)
Just wanted to add I'm not convinced by this argument about conflict between flying and work. No undergrad spends all his time working, unless he's very thick. You have a choice. Studying and sport/the Union bar, or studying and flying at the Squadron. I read law at King's College London which was reputed to be a very demanding course. I still managed to get a decent degree and use all my allocation of UAS hours - and a few more.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 16th Jul 2002 at 21:40.
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Tonks, sorry you’re being a bit naive if you think that your guys are not under great pressure to fly.
They all know that the UAS is their EFT. They are all also aware that their streaming board depends on their performance during their training. It’s all very well to say degrees come first but I think you’ll find very few of the students who are really serious about a flying career think that way.
What would most of them choose - Jags or a 2.1 in Physics?
They all know that the UAS is their EFT. They are all also aware that their streaming board depends on their performance during their training. It’s all very well to say degrees come first but I think you’ll find very few of the students who are really serious about a flying career think that way.
What would most of them choose - Jags or a 2.1 in Physics?
I defer to learned counsel!
Hi Tudor! Yes, you did indeed 'walk' around the place at WW like a slovenly civilian! Whilst we ex- Cranwellians with the benefit of a whole year's experience at Sleaford tech before we joined ULAS (!) marched about and saluted everything which moved! The CPs were indeed a fine group of people and many went on to join the RAF who would never have thought of such a career otherwise.
What I meant was that we (of the officer persuasion) never had to wear white bits with officers' uniform - even afterwards at Cranwell. You poor blokes had to wear that wonderful horsehair blue, of course - perhaps you should sue HM for the friction injuries and lasting tenderness it undoubtedly caused to your nether regions!
Roboalbert - 100% correct, mate!
Hi Tudor! Yes, you did indeed 'walk' around the place at WW like a slovenly civilian! Whilst we ex- Cranwellians with the benefit of a whole year's experience at Sleaford tech before we joined ULAS (!) marched about and saluted everything which moved! The CPs were indeed a fine group of people and many went on to join the RAF who would never have thought of such a career otherwise.
What I meant was that we (of the officer persuasion) never had to wear white bits with officers' uniform - even afterwards at Cranwell. You poor blokes had to wear that wonderful horsehair blue, of course - perhaps you should sue HM for the friction injuries and lasting tenderness it undoubtedly caused to your nether regions!
Roboalbert - 100% correct, mate!
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Thought I'd weigh in with my 2p worth, having come through the RN system (URNU) and also becuase I occassionally help work at one URNU as a training officer (who were kind enough to let me take some guys to the USA last week 
!)
University units are worth the money, they provide a basis for training, give people a clue about the forces and also get rid of the waste of spaces. If WEBF had gone through the URNU system we wouldn't have to put up with his moaning now.
BUt the whole system needs a rethink, I believe strongly in the idea that we should use them as an precusor to basic training, then assuming the people have met the required standards during their three years, we give them an accelerated course during basic, getting them out into the real world a little faster. We need to cut down on the wasters who turn up for the beer / sexy uniform and who don't give their all and instead turn into a dedicated training organisation designed to provide quality partially trained grads who can get through training faster and who are of more value to the service. This is a big issue for the RN where it takes literally years to complete traiing what with fleet time, professional training and so on.
Keep em, but make them more formal. Socials should be part of the fun, not the be all end all of their existence.
!) University units are worth the money, they provide a basis for training, give people a clue about the forces and also get rid of the waste of spaces. If WEBF had gone through the URNU system we wouldn't have to put up with his moaning now.
BUt the whole system needs a rethink, I believe strongly in the idea that we should use them as an precusor to basic training, then assuming the people have met the required standards during their three years, we give them an accelerated course during basic, getting them out into the real world a little faster. We need to cut down on the wasters who turn up for the beer / sexy uniform and who don't give their all and instead turn into a dedicated training organisation designed to provide quality partially trained grads who can get through training faster and who are of more value to the service. This is a big issue for the RN where it takes literally years to complete traiing what with fleet time, professional training and so on.
Keep em, but make them more formal. Socials should be part of the fun, not the be all end all of their existence.
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UAS
I don't know about the "Big Picture" but until recently, there were 6 ex-members of just one UAS serving in the vectored thrust world, ranging in rank from Wg/Cdr to Flt/Lt. I think that UASs cost buttons to run and produce a lot of very capable and well-motivated recruits. They may fall at later hurdles but wherever they finish up they will (I think) always have good memories of their times in a UAS and will support the Services.
Pilot Officer PPRuNe
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Robo,
Perhaps its just me or my sqn, I don't know, but we are v careful that the degree comes first. For a start if they get kicked out of uni then they lose their UAS slot and if they don't get a degree then they probably don't get in. Of course they may not finish the course before they finish uni.
I don't think that the system is perfect, but it is the one we have and its not that bad. With a cynical head on, it gets them used to secondry duties were flying comes first of course
Tonks
Perhaps its just me or my sqn, I don't know, but we are v careful that the degree comes first. For a start if they get kicked out of uni then they lose their UAS slot and if they don't get a degree then they probably don't get in. Of course they may not finish the course before they finish uni.
I don't think that the system is perfect, but it is the one we have and its not that bad. With a cynical head on, it gets them used to secondry duties were flying comes first of course
Tonks
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A2QFI - don't know about buttons to run there.
I started this thread in a quest to help with my frustration (oo-er snurk snurk etc) at work. I have been forced to literally penny-pinch in most every aspect of my remit. I accept that what I do is manage a service provided to the rest of the RAF and I relish that role. What sometimes grips me is the numbers of UAS types who pitch up for a camp, with full civvy eng support, vehicles, aircraft etc and pootle round the Lincolnshire skys. I am forced to justify the smallest expenditure to someone who does not understand my job!!! AAArrghhh - please understand what this can do to a proud blunty - I don't object to having fun etc, but the fun for our lads & lasses is eroding far quicker than the UAS attracts top guns. Keep the facade but we need to bolster the inside too.
I started this thread in a quest to help with my frustration (oo-er snurk snurk etc) at work. I have been forced to literally penny-pinch in most every aspect of my remit. I accept that what I do is manage a service provided to the rest of the RAF and I relish that role. What sometimes grips me is the numbers of UAS types who pitch up for a camp, with full civvy eng support, vehicles, aircraft etc and pootle round the Lincolnshire skys. I am forced to justify the smallest expenditure to someone who does not understand my job!!! AAArrghhh - please understand what this can do to a proud blunty - I don't object to having fun etc, but the fun for our lads & lasses is eroding far quicker than the UAS attracts top guns. Keep the facade but we need to bolster the inside too.
Since this thread has gone of on something of a tangent from its orignal theme (ie flying) and is now on the value of UAS/URNU type units per se, I feel I am entitled to offer my views.
Ouch Jimlad. Your comment was a fairly sharp criticism, alas it was completely true. I went to a University where there was no URNU. No UAS either. Before I made my final decisions on which University to go to I spoke to an Officer from the OCLC in Bristol. He told me that from the Navy's point of view it did not matter. He also said the one I did go to had a good reputation as far as the RN was concerned. In hindsight I am glad that I went there, if I had not I may well of gone there anyway to do my third year.
Although there was no URNU, there was an opportunity to join the OTC. However, I must admit being ignorant of its existence until after the selection weekend during my third year. If I had joined I would not be in the predicament I now find myself in. I also would have stood a much better chance at the AIB last year, and might well currently be a serving Officer, enjoying fleet training and well on my way to becoming a WE Officer. I DID mean to join the local RNR unit down there, I didn't for a mixture of procrastination, fear of failure and getting bogged down with study and personal stuff. Again this would have proabably saved me from my current situation.
Bollox.:o
The main purpose of URNUs (according to a Navy News article a few years ago) is to educate the political and business leaders of the future about the Royal Navy. I expect the UAS and OTC units are muh the same. The training role is considered to be slightly secondary (again according to that article). It is worth noting that they do not expect you to be commited to a forces careers, merely that you will consider it.
Whether or not these units should be more formal is something I know absolutely nothing about. But my thoughts on the relative importance of the balance between study and these units are thus:
When you go to University you do so for one reason, that is to get a degree. Or possibly an HND or other qualification instead. If your heart is set on entering a particular branch or trade that requires qualifications in a certain field you may have less time for extra curricular activities than other. If (like me) you are doing a degree in Engineering (which is what you need if you are to become an Engineer Officer) then you will find yourself with much more work and much less free time than people doing "soft" subjects like social science. You therefore have less time than them for any kind of military experience.
If then the amount of time you put into the URNU/OTC/UAS and other circular activities is then used as an indicator of your motivation at the AIB/OASC/RCB then you may ger problems. From my experience at the AIB, candidates are assesed as potential OFFICERS per se, not Officers in any particularly branch. Therefore if you did a demanding degree which you need for entry into your chosen branch you may well find youself in competition with other graduates who did less demanding subjects and had more time for extra curricular stuff. You are then at a disdvantage. Thats just my view, and before you ask, no, I cannot use it as an excuse for me failings.
Back to flying.....
As you know the Royal Navy is short of both Pilots and Observers. This situation will be made worse, in my view, by decisions taken in the last few moths (you know what I'm refering to). Anyway, in December the MOD announced the setting up of 727 Naval Air Squadron at Pymouth airport. Basically they are using the Grobs that are normally used for Pilot grading. The idea is to offer flying traing and education to young people. Many of these will be students I expect, and I would not be surprised if there is an RNR element to being involved with 727.
Ouch Jimlad. Your comment was a fairly sharp criticism, alas it was completely true. I went to a University where there was no URNU. No UAS either. Before I made my final decisions on which University to go to I spoke to an Officer from the OCLC in Bristol. He told me that from the Navy's point of view it did not matter. He also said the one I did go to had a good reputation as far as the RN was concerned. In hindsight I am glad that I went there, if I had not I may well of gone there anyway to do my third year.
Although there was no URNU, there was an opportunity to join the OTC. However, I must admit being ignorant of its existence until after the selection weekend during my third year.
If I had joined I would not be in the predicament I now find myself in. I also would have stood a much better chance at the AIB last year, and might well currently be a serving Officer, enjoying fleet training and well on my way to becoming a WE Officer. I DID mean to join the local RNR unit down there, I didn't for a mixture of procrastination, fear of failure and getting bogged down with study and personal stuff. Again this would have proabably saved me from my current situation.Bollox.:o
The main purpose of URNUs (according to a Navy News article a few years ago) is to educate the political and business leaders of the future about the Royal Navy. I expect the UAS and OTC units are muh the same. The training role is considered to be slightly secondary (again according to that article). It is worth noting that they do not expect you to be commited to a forces careers, merely that you will consider it.
Whether or not these units should be more formal is something I know absolutely nothing about. But my thoughts on the relative importance of the balance between study and these units are thus:
When you go to University you do so for one reason, that is to get a degree. Or possibly an HND or other qualification instead. If your heart is set on entering a particular branch or trade that requires qualifications in a certain field you may have less time for extra curricular activities than other. If (like me) you are doing a degree in Engineering (which is what you need if you are to become an Engineer Officer) then you will find yourself with much more work and much less free time than people doing "soft" subjects like social science. You therefore have less time than them for any kind of military experience.
If then the amount of time you put into the URNU/OTC/UAS and other circular activities is then used as an indicator of your motivation at the AIB/OASC/RCB then you may ger problems. From my experience at the AIB, candidates are assesed as potential OFFICERS per se, not Officers in any particularly branch. Therefore if you did a demanding degree which you need for entry into your chosen branch you may well find youself in competition with other graduates who did less demanding subjects and had more time for extra curricular stuff. You are then at a disdvantage. Thats just my view, and before you ask, no, I cannot use it as an excuse for me failings.
Back to flying.....
As you know the Royal Navy is short of both Pilots and Observers. This situation will be made worse, in my view, by decisions taken in the last few moths (you know what I'm refering to). Anyway, in December the MOD announced the setting up of 727 Naval Air Squadron at Pymouth airport. Basically they are using the Grobs that are normally used for Pilot grading. The idea is to offer flying traing and education to young people. Many of these will be students I expect, and I would not be surprised if there is an RNR element to being involved with 727.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 18th Jul 2002 at 23:43.
UAS stats
Back to the subject.
After a little bit of research I can provide a snapshot of the success rates of a UAS over a 2/3 yr period.
Any conclusions drawn should bear in mind the accuracy of any research and the varience between UASs, students and yrs.
From my logbook I flew with 86 different students:
33 are now RAF pilots, 3 RN pilots, 7 civil pilots and 4 navs.
Of the 33 RAF pilots:
5 GR4, 2 GR7, 2 Jag
5 Herc, 2 Nimrod, 1 VC10, 1 125
3 Sea King, 1 Puma
3 Hawk QFIs, 1 Tucano QFI
7 unknown or U/T
Of the 3 RN pilots:
2 Junglie, 1 RW type unknown
The 7 civil pilots work for:
Air 2000, Air Atlantique, Britannia, Brymon, Bristows, Ryanair and one as a QFI.
Good luck to you all.
mr ripley
After a little bit of research I can provide a snapshot of the success rates of a UAS over a 2/3 yr period.
Any conclusions drawn should bear in mind the accuracy of any research and the varience between UASs, students and yrs.
From my logbook I flew with 86 different students:
33 are now RAF pilots, 3 RN pilots, 7 civil pilots and 4 navs.
Of the 33 RAF pilots:
5 GR4, 2 GR7, 2 Jag
5 Herc, 2 Nimrod, 1 VC10, 1 125
3 Sea King, 1 Puma
3 Hawk QFIs, 1 Tucano QFI
7 unknown or U/T
Of the 3 RN pilots:
2 Junglie, 1 RW type unknown
The 7 civil pilots work for:
Air 2000, Air Atlantique, Britannia, Brymon, Bristows, Ryanair and one as a QFI.
Good luck to you all.
mr ripley
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Mr Ripley, this seems to be the closest thing to an actual answer to the original question. I can't contribute to the UAS debate, as I am not a graduate. However, an adjunct to the UAS debate is the value or otherwise of the AEFs, which could probably not exist without the UASs. What I do know is that you frequently ask a young cadet who hasn't flown before what he/she wants to do when they leave school and get the "I dunno" answer. Ask the same question after one or two flights and the answer changes to "I wanna join the RAF and be a pilot". The last figure I heard (and it is probably out of date, but someone can doubtless provide the latest) was that approx 60% of RAF personnel are ex-ATC/CCF. Some of this can be attributed to the fact that they joined the ATC/CCF because they were keen on aeroplanes. But a lot of it is due to the "hook 'em early and get 'em keen" effect of air experience flights.
But then I would say that wouldn't I???
But then I would say that wouldn't I???
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I've dumped more fuel over Forres than it must cost to run the UAS !!!
Wholigan: Pleasure doing business with you this month. Can't say much about the mess though !
Wholigan: Pleasure doing business with you this month. Can't say much about the mess though !
