AFPRB
Get rid of JPAC while we are at it. All they ever do is say you need to speak to Unit HR, meanwhile Unit HR tell you to speak to JPAC. Empower the new talent management people with the ability to actually fix problems rather than send them to someone else. Morale will soar.
I take it you're an adminer then Alfie?
Great use of language
Great use of language
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Alfred,
Nice reasoned argument you presented there. It beggars belief that in this day and age officers are paid purely according to rank. I cannot think of any commercial organisation that would manage the pay bill in such a fashion.
But let's stick with age old stereotypes eh? Frankly, I don't care what others think of me.
Nice reasoned argument you presented there. It beggars belief that in this day and age officers are paid purely according to rank. I cannot think of any commercial organisation that would manage the pay bill in such a fashion.
But let's stick with age old stereotypes eh? Frankly, I don't care what others think of me.
Indeed, if one were to look at it purely from an external market perspective, on the back of that study one might look at your average airline pilot at EJ, BA etc and ask whether that as a purely technical skill and with no requirement for your average airline pilot to have done a commissioning course before taking up their first right hand seat, whether pilots need to be officers at all? Could they be NCOs in pay band 4 with a minority being commissioned over time into leadership and management positions? I know a good few airline pilots who went straight down the civilian route and have no formal leadership or management training and yet are still good pilots despite not having been officers.
It's certainly not a simple issue, and although emotive, and I don't think it will become any less complex as we move gradually from the traditional views of 'air power' to 'aerospace' power, including the growing use of unmanned systems over the coming years and decades. Frankly, give it a few decades and you'll probably find its the spotty 19 year old who dreams in binary and can read code like we read the papers is going to be the next generation of high market value warrior rather than the sporty one with high functioning motor skills.
Last edited by Melchett01; 23rd Mar 2017 at 00:19.
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Alfred,
Nice reasoned argument you presented there. It beggars belief that in this day and age officers are paid purely according to rank. I cannot think of any commercial organisation that would manage the pay bill in such a fashion.
But let's stick with age old stereotypes eh? Frankly, I don't care what others think of me.
Nice reasoned argument you presented there. It beggars belief that in this day and age officers are paid purely according to rank. I cannot think of any commercial organisation that would manage the pay bill in such a fashion.
But let's stick with age old stereotypes eh? Frankly, I don't care what others think of me.
I second your proposals, but, using your 'modern thinking', it seems like it's the ME pilots who need the 'special' payband, with the multi's guys also, with the notable exception of the Tonka pilots, doing most of the op flying these days on top!
Besides, how expensive can property be in Lossiemouth?
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My point is that each job should have a payband. I don't care who earns more, just pay what you think they are worth paying. If ME pilots justify more as a result of outflow then why not pay more? Plenty of FJ guys transition to civ air too btw.
No issue with having NCO pilots either. Just pay them properly. Not sure NEM solved that one.
The main point is that the RRP proposals don't seem to address the problem. The AFPRB is not independent enough and NEM was a muddle that seemed to take forever to come up with but solved little, if anything. Truly a fine example of a committee decision. If you can payband the junior ranks, why not officers?
Anyway, looking forward to another real terms paycut tomorrow.
No issue with having NCO pilots either. Just pay them properly. Not sure NEM solved that one.
The main point is that the RRP proposals don't seem to address the problem. The AFPRB is not independent enough and NEM was a muddle that seemed to take forever to come up with but solved little, if anything. Truly a fine example of a committee decision. If you can payband the junior ranks, why not officers?
Anyway, looking forward to another real terms paycut tomorrow.
You're right, pilots should have moved to separate pay spine a long time ago...it's all a little too late now.
Ascoteer.
You are making the same mistake that manning is making. You assume that because the airlines don't want FJ pilots there is no demand for them in civvy street. That is wrong. There are hundreds of jobs for FJ pilots in civvy street just not necessarily in the airlines. Aerospace companies and Middle Eastern AirForces currently pay far more than the airlines do and they are lapping up FJ pilots for flying and ground based roles.
Also you make the mistake of thinking basic salary is everything. Once you add in virtual pension contributions and money available for schooling the military pay package actually stacks up pretty nicely against the airlines at least. As a PAS Flt Lt with 3 kids my basic salary may be less than an airline pilot but I don't make pension contributions and I don't pay a penny for private schooling. That's before I even factor in what I can earn as a QFI on secondment.
So I agree that Multi Engine pilots are in high demand and can therefore justify being paid more but don't presume the same isn't true for FJ pilots. I dare say a Rotary expert could make the same case for his brethren too.
BV
You are making the same mistake that manning is making. You assume that because the airlines don't want FJ pilots there is no demand for them in civvy street. That is wrong. There are hundreds of jobs for FJ pilots in civvy street just not necessarily in the airlines. Aerospace companies and Middle Eastern AirForces currently pay far more than the airlines do and they are lapping up FJ pilots for flying and ground based roles.
Also you make the mistake of thinking basic salary is everything. Once you add in virtual pension contributions and money available for schooling the military pay package actually stacks up pretty nicely against the airlines at least. As a PAS Flt Lt with 3 kids my basic salary may be less than an airline pilot but I don't make pension contributions and I don't pay a penny for private schooling. That's before I even factor in what I can earn as a QFI on secondment.
So I agree that Multi Engine pilots are in high demand and can therefore justify being paid more but don't presume the same isn't true for FJ pilots. I dare say a Rotary expert could make the same case for his brethren too.
BV
Luckily there's no demand for FJ pilots in civvy street, but lots for A330/Widebody Boeing/Global Express/BAe146 rated pilots, plus from the retention paperwork it seems they are the ones leaving.
I second your proposals, but, using your 'modern thinking', it seems like it's the ME pilots who need the 'special' payband, with the multi's guys also, with the notable exception of the Tonka pilots, doing most of the op flying these days on top!
Besides, how expensive can property be in Lossiemouth?
I second your proposals, but, using your 'modern thinking', it seems like it's the ME pilots who need the 'special' payband, with the multi's guys also, with the notable exception of the Tonka pilots, doing most of the op flying these days on top!
Besides, how expensive can property be in Lossiemouth?
I'm not saying there isn't an equal, or maybe even greater pull for ME pilots, it's not my area so I wouldn't know.
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As a PAS Flt Lt with 3 kids my basic salary may be less than an airline pilot but I don't make pension contributions and I don't pay a penny for private schooling
If you are actually claiming CEA then there is a requirement to contribute at least 10%.
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Looks like anyone who was hoping they would be trying to retain the most experienced aviators amongst us will be very disappointed. As someone who has been in 18 years the new RRP makes just about c**k all difference to me.
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[QUOTE=jayc530;9716510]Off you go then, I wish you all the luck in the world, I doubt you'll be going anywhere. Selfish beyond reasoning.[/QUOTE
How is commenting that something makes no difference to those we were told would be targeted to stay selfish?
I never mentioned plans to leave or not, just said it makes c**k all difference to those I was briefed it would be aimed at retaining.
Relax a little......
How is commenting that something makes no difference to those we were told would be targeted to stay selfish?
I never mentioned plans to leave or not, just said it makes c**k all difference to those I was briefed it would be aimed at retaining.
Relax a little......
I must be one of the few that have yet to see the new RRP structure. In my AoR the exodus is slowing, but only because the tanks are running dry.
The ritual burning of anything resembling a positive part of our employment, to leave just a transactional one, will count as one of the greatest errors when trying to glue together a professional volunteer force. Taking such measures with almost zero control of the balancing 'transactional' part of the package was just nuts.
I must admit to a certain morbid fascination as to how low they will go when it comes to retention, remuneration and manning levels.
The ritual burning of anything resembling a positive part of our employment, to leave just a transactional one, will count as one of the greatest errors when trying to glue together a professional volunteer force. Taking such measures with almost zero control of the balancing 'transactional' part of the package was just nuts.
I must admit to a certain morbid fascination as to how low they will go when it comes to retention, remuneration and manning levels.
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Ascoteer.
You are making the same mistake that manning is making. You assume that because the airlines don't want FJ pilots there is no demand for them in civvy street. That is wrong. There are hundreds of jobs for FJ pilots in civvy street just not necessarily in the airlines. Aerospace companies and Middle Eastern AirForces currently pay far more than the airlines do and they are lapping up FJ pilots for flying and ground based roles.
Also you make the mistake of thinking basic salary is everything. Once you add in virtual pension contributions and money available for schooling the military pay package actually stacks up pretty nicely against the airlines at least. As a PAS Flt Lt with 3 kids my basic salary may be less than an airline pilot but I don't make pension contributions and I don't pay a penny for private schooling. That's before I even factor in what I can earn as a QFI on secondment.
So I agree that Multi Engine pilots are in high demand and can therefore justify being paid more but don't presume the same isn't true for FJ pilots. I dare say a Rotary expert could make the same case for his brethren too.
BV
You are making the same mistake that manning is making. You assume that because the airlines don't want FJ pilots there is no demand for them in civvy street. That is wrong. There are hundreds of jobs for FJ pilots in civvy street just not necessarily in the airlines. Aerospace companies and Middle Eastern AirForces currently pay far more than the airlines do and they are lapping up FJ pilots for flying and ground based roles.
Also you make the mistake of thinking basic salary is everything. Once you add in virtual pension contributions and money available for schooling the military pay package actually stacks up pretty nicely against the airlines at least. As a PAS Flt Lt with 3 kids my basic salary may be less than an airline pilot but I don't make pension contributions and I don't pay a penny for private schooling. That's before I even factor in what I can earn as a QFI on secondment.
So I agree that Multi Engine pilots are in high demand and can therefore justify being paid more but don't presume the same isn't true for FJ pilots. I dare say a Rotary expert could make the same case for his brethren too.
BV
As for the pensions/allowances, these are hugely dependent; if you're unmarried, childless and didn't accrue much under AFPS75 then it's an easier read-across, whereas if you're in the SFA, big pension, CEA trap it's a lot more difficult to take an interim airlines or FO job.
Frankly, my own decision to leave will be more lifestyle than pay based, but the pay rise on leaving is very, very significant.
Last edited by Ascoteer; 29th Mar 2017 at 18:34.
I'm in a similar position, if what is doing the rounds is accurate I reckon the difference post 1 Apr won't be enough to buy me the cheapest pint in the bar after work each day. But then we are being retained by proximity to pension more than whatever the RAF could afford to pay us as an FRI.
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[QUOTE=Aynayda Pizaqvick;9717057]I'm in a similar position, if what is doing the rounds is accurate I reckon the difference post 1 Apr won't be enough to buy me the cheapest pint in the bar after work each day. But then we are being retained by proximity to pension more than whatever the RAF could afford to pay us as an FRI.[/QUOTE
Yes, I think you are absolutely correct about the proximity to pension being the recognized method of keeping us for a while. I think it's a bit short sighted of the committee to not look beyond that though.
Yes, I think you are absolutely correct about the proximity to pension being the recognized method of keeping us for a while. I think it's a bit short sighted of the committee to not look beyond that though.
20 things I've learned since becoming an air traffic controller
"Zero stress and an £80,000 salary: 20 things I've learned since becoming an air traffic controller"
It's not just aircrew who could look at higher paid jobs...saw this in the torygraph today, I assume contents to be taken with a pinch of salt but indicates the salaries available to other branches and trades outside the RAF.
"Zero stress and an £80,000 salary: 20 things I've learned since becoming an air traffic controller"
It's not just aircrew who could look at higher paid jobs...saw this in the torygraph today, I assume contents to be taken with a pinch of salt but indicates the salaries available to other branches and trades outside the RAF.
