Tornado Replacement
Interesting that the opening topic in Hemo's presentation is about the importance of being able to get slow with your adversary.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone can attribute much importance to the rather well-worn F-16 vs F-35 saga. Most of us here (well, the aircrew and engineers at least) will have seen how the outcomes of trials (and certain exercises) can be misconstrued if one does not know all the details of the parameters and objectives. That is not to say a 5g "fighter" is likely to out-manoeuvre a 9g one - even if it can fly very slowly at very high aoa.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone can attribute much importance to the rather well-worn F-16 vs F-35 saga. Most of us here (well, the aircrew and engineers at least) will have seen how the outcomes of trials (and certain exercises) can be misconstrued if one does not know all the details of the parameters and objectives. That is not to say a 5g "fighter" is likely to out-manoeuvre a 9g one - even if it can fly very slowly at very high aoa.
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@theonewhoknows, you're welcome, The RAF pilots that have flown it say similar things about the F-35.
Download Lagu Royal Air Force F 35 Test Pilot Interview (4.48MB) Mp3 Terbaru
Download Lagu Royal Air Force F 35 Test Pilot Interview (4.48MB) Mp3 Terbaru
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That is not to say a 5g "fighter" is likely to out-manoeuvre a 9g one - even if it can fly very slowly at very high aoa.
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Yes it does, technically, but you need to have a means of telling it where the Q is and, if necessary, data linking that to the mx. You could give it all the gen pre-launch, but you've got a big uncertainty box, which would be dangerous close in with friendlies close by.
On the other hand, I understand that F-35 has very low frontal IR signature, lower even than F-22. Is it low enough to prevent an adversary from taking a frontal shot with an IR missile? I don't know. But if so, then that would seem to be a significant advantage. Without an IR HOBS missile the F-35 would be at a disadvantage offensively post merge, but if it can't be shot upon from the front with an IR missile, it could use that to disengage at the merge and then maneuver to take a longer range shot with an RF missile, where it enjoys its biggest advantage.
Sorry, Ken, I was not clear about that. HOBS could be used at any range, but at a cost. At longer range (let's say BVR for argument's sake) you gain a lot by doing as much of the mx's work as possible pre-launch.
If the mx has a lot of work to do to achieve a collision with its target, it will lose a lot of kinetic energy by turning, thereby reducing its ability to do manoeuvre to counter target manoeuvre or for end-game navigation. So at longer range, you'd be better off doing as much manoeuvre as possible with the aircraft to achieve the best firing solution so that all the mx has to do it fly where you've pointed it. In very simple terms.
As for LO (radar or IR), the effectiveness decreases exponentially with decreasing range. Up close you can see it with eyeballs, radar and IR. The visual fight environment.
I've been slightly vague there for obvious reasons, but I hope you get my meaning.
If the mx has a lot of work to do to achieve a collision with its target, it will lose a lot of kinetic energy by turning, thereby reducing its ability to do manoeuvre to counter target manoeuvre or for end-game navigation. So at longer range, you'd be better off doing as much manoeuvre as possible with the aircraft to achieve the best firing solution so that all the mx has to do it fly where you've pointed it. In very simple terms.
As for LO (radar or IR), the effectiveness decreases exponentially with decreasing range. Up close you can see it with eyeballs, radar and IR. The visual fight environment.
I've been slightly vague there for obvious reasons, but I hope you get my meaning.
Leon - What an excellent article from someone who clearly knows what they are talking about. I have 'heard' from a number of sources that F3 had capabilities developed to overcome some basic weaknesses that meant that it was more than a match for its peers and as seems to be the norm, was at its most capable when withdrawn from service.
I particularly liked the 'polish a turd' analogy and it will be interesting to see whether the much criticised but jaw droppingly expensive F35 will eventually be polished. I suspect it might, as for the west, it is the only show in town. The real question is how much of a turd is it. While F3 had its faults, it was fast (no other aircraft was cleared to achieve Ma 1.2 at sea level ~ 800Kts), could accelerate, could achieve 7.5g turns and, carried reasonable stores and had good range. On the other hand, F35 is not fast, has pitiful g limitations, has very limited (inboard) stores capacity, cannot accelerate and has limited range. What else do you expect for over £100m. Oh yes, it is 5th Generation...........
I particularly liked the 'polish a turd' analogy and it will be interesting to see whether the much criticised but jaw droppingly expensive F35 will eventually be polished. I suspect it might, as for the west, it is the only show in town. The real question is how much of a turd is it. While F3 had its faults, it was fast (no other aircraft was cleared to achieve Ma 1.2 at sea level ~ 800Kts), could accelerate, could achieve 7.5g turns and, carried reasonable stores and had good range. On the other hand, F35 is not fast, has pitiful g limitations, has very limited (inboard) stores capacity, cannot accelerate and has limited range. What else do you expect for over £100m. Oh yes, it is 5th Generation...........
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F35 is not fast, has pitiful g limitations, has very limited (inboard) stores capacity, cannot accelerate and has limited range.
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Ken, following the changing data takes more dedication to the subject than I have time for, but I would say (in order listed):
Mach 1.6 clean, but probably unrealistic due to accel drop-off above Mach 1.
4.5g sustained (at approx 11degrees per second), 7g structural limit.
2 internal AAMs, no 2000lb class weapons, no internal gun.
F-35 accel hard to find; somewhere in the region of 79 seconds?
Combat Radius 463nm.
Anyone got any better numbers?
Mach 1.6 clean, but probably unrealistic due to accel drop-off above Mach 1.
4.5g sustained (at approx 11degrees per second), 7g structural limit.
2 internal AAMs, no 2000lb class weapons, no internal gun.
F-35 accel hard to find; somewhere in the region of 79 seconds?
Combat Radius 463nm.
Anyone got any better numbers?
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These numbers look like they belong to the B.
The A has bigger internal weapons bay and is cleaner and lighter than B, so better acceleration and speed. Also better agility and (for whatever reason) a higher structural G limit.
As for a 5th gen definition, how about this one:
The exact characteristics of fifth-generation jet fighters are controversial and vague, with Lockheed Martin defining them as having all-aspect stealth even when armed, low probability of intercept radar (LPIR), high-performance airframes, advanced avionics features, and highly integrated computer systems capable of networking with other elements within the battlespace for situational awareness.
Using this definition, it would appear only the F-22 and F-35 qualify in the west.
And my understanding is that the new generation Russian/Indian and Chinese fighters don't have all-aspect stealth. I have no idea about their avionics fit or their networking capability.
The A has bigger internal weapons bay and is cleaner and lighter than B, so better acceleration and speed. Also better agility and (for whatever reason) a higher structural G limit.
As for a 5th gen definition, how about this one:
The exact characteristics of fifth-generation jet fighters are controversial and vague, with Lockheed Martin defining them as having all-aspect stealth even when armed, low probability of intercept radar (LPIR), high-performance airframes, advanced avionics features, and highly integrated computer systems capable of networking with other elements within the battlespace for situational awareness.
Using this definition, it would appear only the F-22 and F-35 qualify in the west.
And my understanding is that the new generation Russian/Indian and Chinese fighters don't have all-aspect stealth. I have no idea about their avionics fit or their networking capability.
We're not sure how all-aspect F-35's stealth is yet, Ken. But we know it's optimised in the head aspect. I don't suppose LM or DoD are likely to start telling us all about that anytime soon.
Yes, those are the B-model numbers, the only ones I have that much interest in - for the sake of my former colleagues.
Yes, those are the B-model numbers, the only ones I have that much interest in - for the sake of my former colleagues.
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KenV
It's interesting that Lock' define 5th Gen, inter alia, as '...high performance airframe..', as opposed to the aviation literature view of 5th Gen as '...super-cruise and highly agile...'.
Does '...high performance airframe...' encompass the F-35?
It's interesting that Lock' define 5th Gen, inter alia, as '...high performance airframe..', as opposed to the aviation literature view of 5th Gen as '...super-cruise and highly agile...'.
Does '...high performance airframe...' encompass the F-35?
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Somebody will have it somewhere but I'm fairly sure that LM's original definition of 5th Gen characteristics excluded the F35 thus they came up with another definition...
Make of that what you will.
Make of that what you will.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Germany Wants European Collaboration For Tornado Replacement
The German government is calling for European collaboration on a program to develop a next-generation combat aircraft to replace the Panavia Tornado.
Germany wants the NextGenWS (weapon system)—which could be manned, unmanned or even optionally manned—to enter operational service during the 2020s, taking on many of the roles of the aging Tornado and complementing the country’s fleet of Eurofighters.
But Germany is unable to develop such a capability on its own. The German defense ministry’s newly published Military Aviation Strategy says that a “single-handed national development for weapon systems of this complexity no longer seems possible,” so it wants “concrete European collaboration,” firmed up during 2016 to pave the way for the new system. “An early dialog in Europe about possible common objectives, development lines and options for action will be initiated by the [German defense ministry] shortly,” the report states.
The plan emerges as Germany begins to embark on a major rearmament program, not only in light of increased Russian aggression but also to remedy shortages in funding that have impaired the German armed forces’ ability to operate. Poor serviceability has meant low availability for some aircraft and helicopter fleets in recent years. Just in the past year, the German defense ministry has selected a new ground-based air-defense system and begun studies into replacing its heavy-lift helicopter fleets. Germany also appears likely to join a European multinational aerial refueling force being established by the Netherlands using Airbus A330s.
However, the German government may not find many takers for such a new combat aircraft development. Of the nations that could potentially afford to join such a development program, many—such as Italy, which also flies the Tornado—are already going down the F-35 route or are participating in joint unmanned combat air vehicle programs, such as the Anglo-French Future Combat Air System (FCAS) feasibility study. It is certainly possible that Germany could join one of these development programs. Germany and France already have close ties, and Britain is keen to expand its defense ties with Germany further.
But the German strategy is to try to take a lead role in such a program, as it has with the EuroMALE UAV project with France, Italy and Spain. “It is important to learn from the experiences of the past and move from being part of the contracting authority to a real lead-nation principal,” the strategy document dictates. Furthermore, historically Germany has not always been the easiest of partner nations to work with. Berlin had previously attempted on numerous occasions to wriggle its way out of the Eurofighter program, and politics in Germany have inadvertently held back efforts to expand the aircraft’s capabilities.
NextGenWS has evolved out of Germany’s own FCAS studies, which sees the Eurofighter as the backbone of Germany’s combat aircraft fleet until the 2040s. Under FCAS, the Tornado will remain in service until the mid-2020s, although this could be pushed back into the 2030s if the NextGenWS is not yet operational or available. Officials would like to achieve an interim operating capability with the NextGenWS before the Tornado is retired from service.
As in the U.K., Germany’s Tornados are the country’s primary strike platform, carrying precision-guided cruise missiles in the form of the KEPD 350 Taurus. A special version, called Tornado ECR, performs the suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD) mission. The Tornado is also the platform capable of dropping U.S. B61 nuclear bombs based in Germany under a dual-key arrangement. German politicians have called for the removal of U.S. nuclear weapons from Germany, but that has not yet happened.
The German aircraft have been progressively upgraded; Airbus Defense and Space developed the Avionics System Software Tornado Ada [Ada is the programming language] (Assta) spiral upgrade, which has improved mission systems and computer processing power. All 85 aircraft are due to be fitted with the Assta 3.1 update by the end of 2018. Several Luftwaffe Tornados are currently performing reconnaissance missions over Syria after France asked Germany for assistance following the terrorist attacks in Paris.
As with the U.K., Germany also intends to adapt the Eurofighter to take on some of the Tornado’s capabilities. It plans to add the GBU-48 laser-guided bomb in the relatively near future, as well as to integrate both the larger GBU-24 Paveway III and the Taurus cruise missile on the aircraft. But capabilities such as anti-surface ship attack (ASuW) and SEAD are not expected before 2025. Later models of the Eurofighter, including the Tranche 2/3A model, could remain in service until 2040. A mid-life update for those aircraft will also be considered in the coming years, the aviation strategy document says.
The German government is calling for European collaboration on a program to develop a next-generation combat aircraft to replace the Panavia Tornado.
Germany wants the NextGenWS (weapon system)—which could be manned, unmanned or even optionally manned—to enter operational service during the 2020s, taking on many of the roles of the aging Tornado and complementing the country’s fleet of Eurofighters.
But Germany is unable to develop such a capability on its own. The German defense ministry’s newly published Military Aviation Strategy says that a “single-handed national development for weapon systems of this complexity no longer seems possible,” so it wants “concrete European collaboration,” firmed up during 2016 to pave the way for the new system. “An early dialog in Europe about possible common objectives, development lines and options for action will be initiated by the [German defense ministry] shortly,” the report states.
The plan emerges as Germany begins to embark on a major rearmament program, not only in light of increased Russian aggression but also to remedy shortages in funding that have impaired the German armed forces’ ability to operate. Poor serviceability has meant low availability for some aircraft and helicopter fleets in recent years. Just in the past year, the German defense ministry has selected a new ground-based air-defense system and begun studies into replacing its heavy-lift helicopter fleets. Germany also appears likely to join a European multinational aerial refueling force being established by the Netherlands using Airbus A330s.
However, the German government may not find many takers for such a new combat aircraft development. Of the nations that could potentially afford to join such a development program, many—such as Italy, which also flies the Tornado—are already going down the F-35 route or are participating in joint unmanned combat air vehicle programs, such as the Anglo-French Future Combat Air System (FCAS) feasibility study. It is certainly possible that Germany could join one of these development programs. Germany and France already have close ties, and Britain is keen to expand its defense ties with Germany further.
But the German strategy is to try to take a lead role in such a program, as it has with the EuroMALE UAV project with France, Italy and Spain. “It is important to learn from the experiences of the past and move from being part of the contracting authority to a real lead-nation principal,” the strategy document dictates. Furthermore, historically Germany has not always been the easiest of partner nations to work with. Berlin had previously attempted on numerous occasions to wriggle its way out of the Eurofighter program, and politics in Germany have inadvertently held back efforts to expand the aircraft’s capabilities.
NextGenWS has evolved out of Germany’s own FCAS studies, which sees the Eurofighter as the backbone of Germany’s combat aircraft fleet until the 2040s. Under FCAS, the Tornado will remain in service until the mid-2020s, although this could be pushed back into the 2030s if the NextGenWS is not yet operational or available. Officials would like to achieve an interim operating capability with the NextGenWS before the Tornado is retired from service.
As in the U.K., Germany’s Tornados are the country’s primary strike platform, carrying precision-guided cruise missiles in the form of the KEPD 350 Taurus. A special version, called Tornado ECR, performs the suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD) mission. The Tornado is also the platform capable of dropping U.S. B61 nuclear bombs based in Germany under a dual-key arrangement. German politicians have called for the removal of U.S. nuclear weapons from Germany, but that has not yet happened.
The German aircraft have been progressively upgraded; Airbus Defense and Space developed the Avionics System Software Tornado Ada [Ada is the programming language] (Assta) spiral upgrade, which has improved mission systems and computer processing power. All 85 aircraft are due to be fitted with the Assta 3.1 update by the end of 2018. Several Luftwaffe Tornados are currently performing reconnaissance missions over Syria after France asked Germany for assistance following the terrorist attacks in Paris.
As with the U.K., Germany also intends to adapt the Eurofighter to take on some of the Tornado’s capabilities. It plans to add the GBU-48 laser-guided bomb in the relatively near future, as well as to integrate both the larger GBU-24 Paveway III and the Taurus cruise missile on the aircraft. But capabilities such as anti-surface ship attack (ASuW) and SEAD are not expected before 2025. Later models of the Eurofighter, including the Tranche 2/3A model, could remain in service until 2040. A mid-life update for those aircraft will also be considered in the coming years, the aviation strategy document says.
Germany Wants European Collaboration For Tornado Replacement
Germany wants the NextGenWS (weapon system)—which could be manned, unmanned or even optionally manned—to enter operational service during the 2020s, taking on many of the roles of the aging Tornado and complementing the country’s fleet of Eurofighters.
Germany wants the NextGenWS (weapon system)—which could be manned, unmanned or even optionally manned—to enter operational service during the 2020s, taking on many of the roles of the aging Tornado and complementing the country’s fleet of Eurofighters.
