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Was the Lightning really THAT good ?

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Was the Lightning really THAT good ?

Old 31st Oct 2015, 01:21
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Wessex Boy, F2 in those days, hadn't got the F3 in 87.
The F.3 entered service with 229 OCU in 1986...

-RP
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Old 31st Oct 2015, 11:28
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Wrong thread for THAT F.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Wessex Boy, F2 in those days, hadn't got the F3 in 87.

The F.3 entered service with 229 OCU in 1986...



THE
F.3 was in service with 226OCU long before that
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Old 31st Oct 2015, 11:45
  #203 (permalink)  
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F3

I stand corrected. I know that during the air show, which I thought was 87, I collected as many Tornadoes as possible with TTTE contributing different national markings. 226 had F2.

Bae insisted on visiting in an F3 for whatever reason. Pleased to have one F3 we were less pleased when he demanded a take off slot. The show was tightly scheduled and we didn't have a free slot. He got away with some other departures.

RPE was OC 229 and the Smiling Knife was OC 29. The F4 OCU was there too.

Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 31st Oct 2015 at 15:47. Reason: finger trouble and memory
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Old 31st Oct 2015, 13:27
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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I think you mean 229 OCU, or 65 Sqn, with R P-E as boss.
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Old 31st Oct 2015, 15:01
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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I thought that I did a trip with 29 Sqn. in the Spring of 1969 out of Luqa in a T5 ( Zebedee) along with three F3's. Memory does play tricks (I know!) however according to John Rawlings 29 got their F.3's around May `67 and one in their markings is illustrated in his RAF Fighter Squadrons book published in 1969.
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Old 31st Oct 2015, 15:57
  #206 (permalink)  
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We'ze is discussing Tornado F2/F3, including top secret Blue Circle radar......
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Old 31st Oct 2015, 16:06
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Red face Whoops

Sorry guys, internal Brain drift.

Best I just go and watch the Rugby...........
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Old 31st Oct 2015, 18:01
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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We'ze is discussing Tornado F2/F3, including top secret Blue Circle radar......

On a Lightning thread!! Why?
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Old 31st Oct 2015, 18:03
  #209 (permalink)  
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Thread drift - smash it to the edge and follow it round.......
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 09:19
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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I worked on Lightnings in Saudi in the early 1980's.
As said before absolute pigs to work on.
Part of the Saudi pilots pre flight was to have a pray before climbing in,can't say I blamed them.
Saudi was the only place they were used in anger,bombing some rebels fort.
There used to be a link on the Airmech site to the SA CAA report into a fatal Thunder City Lightning crash,it did not make easy reading.
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 09:35
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Would the heat from the leading edges of a target doing high Mach give off enough heat for a Redtop/Firestreak to lock on?

From my old wargaming days the Redtop used to have a 90 degree aspect lock on at the rear of target, something the early Sidewinders could not achieve.

Plus the turning rates for the Lightning pi**ed all over the F4, even with slats according to SPI's AirWar

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/...cal-air-combat
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 10:58
  #212 (permalink)  
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Redtop yes, Firestreak no.
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 13:33
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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Wotme,
Saudi was the only place they were used in anger
Depends on what you mean by 'in anger' During the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974 56 Sqn flew armed patrols for a month with 4 a/c either airborne or on RS10, 4 at RS30 and another 4 at RS60. Although no shots were fired, there were a couple of nearlies so I would argue that this episode is pretty close to being used 'in anger'.

ERR,
I did quite a lot of Lightning v F4 combat with 43 Sqn when they first got their F4Ks in 1970. In a BVR fight it was no contest - the Phantom's radar had twice the range of the Lightning and a viable all-aspect missile in the Sparrow. If, however, you could get past this initial encounter into a visual fight, then the Lightning generally had the upper hand. However below 10k a clean F4 (missiles only) was very much the match of the Lightning in a turning fight.
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 14:47
  #214 (permalink)  
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However below 10k a clean F4 (missiles only) was very much the match of the Lightning in a turning fight.
And not much greater endurance......
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 15:27
  #215 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by nipva View Post
I did quite a lot of Lightning v F4 combat with 43 Sqn when they first got their F4Ks in 1970. In a BVR fight it was no contest - the Phantom's radar had twice the range of the Lightning.
Twice? Even on the OCU we were limited to not calling Judy beyond 50 miles
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 16:12
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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PN,

It was just a figure of speech. I didn't want to come up with a specific order of magnitude only to be corrected by some armchair warrior. Let's just agree that the F4's radar had a huge increase in range over that of the Lightning at all levels and especially at low level where the Lightnings radar was virtually useless.
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 19:28
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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LIGHTNING V F4

NIPVA,

Of course the F4 was the better BVR machine and a very potent multi-role fighter. The Lightning missiles were IR only hence the term Red Flop and Firewood.

Of the F4s, I much preferred the F4K, which I flew on 43 Sqn, better than the FGR2 for manoeuvrability.

As to WVR work, as you stated, the F4 was only useful below 10K and at very light weight, so was the Harrier! The Lightning performed very well at all levels until it ran out of fuel. The F4 and Harrier could not compete with the Lightning at higher levels.

I loved the F15 and even the Tornado F3! But all this is history now. They were horses for different courses.
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 23:06
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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The Saudi Lightnings were fitted with bomb racks and they actually used them in anger in the Yemen in the 70s. I have a suspicion that the pilots were often Brits though...

EAP
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 23:27
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MACH2NUMBER
Of the F4s, I much preferred the F4K, which I flew on 43 Sqn, better than the FGR2 for manoeuvrability.
How so? I thought, apart from the lack of INAS and the different nose gear leg, the FG.1 and FGR.2 were virtually identical, same wing, same thrust etc...
Was it the slotted stab that made the difference?

-RP
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Old 1st Nov 2015, 23:29
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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There is some irony that an iconic fighter like the Lightning is attributed with BOMBING as its "in anger" mission.
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