Inappropriate trophy photos
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melmothtw
"Well, so long as you'd be equally able just to shrug it off if it was your son/father lying there.... "
Well, when you put it like that....
You are quite right. The most distressing thing about my loved one dying would be the victory pic, not the fact that they had died
I really have no interest in my or anybody elses body after death, it is the essence not the vessel I am interested in.
"Well, so long as you'd be equally able just to shrug it off if it was your son/father lying there.... "
Well, when you put it like that....
You are quite right. The most distressing thing about my loved one dying would be the victory pic, not the fact that they had died
I really have no interest in my or anybody elses body after death, it is the essence not the vessel I am interested in.
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PC madness. A 30 second news grab that goes in one of average Joe's ears and out the other, talked about on Pprune for a month and then promptly forgotten about by everyone except the people directly involved.
One wonders what the reaction would be with a different caption..
"Army News:
Bloody Battle ends in victory.
Cpl A Nonymous poses in front of the body of a Taliban commander after a vicious and bloody firefight last Wednesday.
Cpl Nonymous was part of a three man squad cut off for more than 3 hours from Allied support by a enemy force estimated at over 50 after Taliban forces ambushed their patrol.
Cpl Nonymous, as the only member of the squad not wounded, made a desperate and courageous charge at what he had identified as the enemy command group, during which he managed to kill both the Taliban commander and his radio operator, breaking up the attack and causing confusion among the enemy. The timely arrival of air assets broke the attack completely resulting in a Taliban withdrawal.
Cpl Nonymous returns to the UK next week to his wife and five children."
One wonders what the reaction would be with a different caption..
"Army News:
Bloody Battle ends in victory.
Cpl A Nonymous poses in front of the body of a Taliban commander after a vicious and bloody firefight last Wednesday.
Cpl Nonymous was part of a three man squad cut off for more than 3 hours from Allied support by a enemy force estimated at over 50 after Taliban forces ambushed their patrol.
Cpl Nonymous, as the only member of the squad not wounded, made a desperate and courageous charge at what he had identified as the enemy command group, during which he managed to kill both the Taliban commander and his radio operator, breaking up the attack and causing confusion among the enemy. The timely arrival of air assets broke the attack completely resulting in a Taliban withdrawal.
Cpl Nonymous returns to the UK next week to his wife and five children."
The people who are most upset by these photographs are those who have never put themselves in harm's way and who have never experienced the feeling of having an enemy actively trying to kill them, people who never have and never will stand up to fight, physically, for what is right. People who live blissfully in an insulated little bubble of safety and security which since the dawn of time has been provided with the blood of servicemen. Under these circumstances I am really struggling to give a toss about the faux outrage Islington liberals spluttering into their lattes over photos of morbid reality.
The people who are most likely to complain, as you also allude to, are those who hold nothing but contempt for the old institutions such as the military establishment. The Liberal left, certainly a catch all title which covers such people and their smug self superior belief in their own better intellect and moral standing, are the usual offenders. Those with an axe to grind against the establishment, they are the ones plus those with a sheltered simple understanding of conflict. This is why today we have a military establishment which reacts in a way they think serves them well in terms of media and therefore, political and public support. So they over react to stories like this one reaching the public domain in the vain hope they will strike the right cord. Hopefully there will always be a retired officer on hand, with nothing to lose, such as Col Dewar today on the BBC, who put matters rather more into perspective.
FB
The people who are most likely to complain are those who hold nothing but contempt for the old institutions chief among which is the military establishment. The Liberal left, certainly as catch all title covers such people and their smug self superior belief in their own better intellect and moral standing. Those with an axe to grind against the establishment, they are the ones plus the sheltered simple understanding of conflict by others.
"Army News:
Bloody Battle ends in victory.
Cpl A Nonymous poses in front of the body of a Taliban commander after a vicious and bloody firefight last Wednesday.
Cpl Nonymous was part of a three man squad cut off for more than 3 hours from Allied support by a enemy force estimated at over 50 after Taliban forces ambushed their patrol.
Cpl Nonymous, as the only member of the squad not wounded, made a desperate and courageous charge at what he had identified as the enemy command group, during which he managed to kill both the Taliban commander and his radio operator, breaking up the attack and causing confusion among the enemy. The timely arrival of air assets broke the attack completely resulting in a Taliban withdrawal.
Cpl Nonymous returns to the UK next week to his wife and five children."
Bloody Battle ends in victory.
Cpl A Nonymous poses in front of the body of a Taliban commander after a vicious and bloody firefight last Wednesday.
Cpl Nonymous was part of a three man squad cut off for more than 3 hours from Allied support by a enemy force estimated at over 50 after Taliban forces ambushed their patrol.
Cpl Nonymous, as the only member of the squad not wounded, made a desperate and courageous charge at what he had identified as the enemy command group, during which he managed to kill both the Taliban commander and his radio operator, breaking up the attack and causing confusion among the enemy. The timely arrival of air assets broke the attack completely resulting in a Taliban withdrawal.
Cpl Nonymous returns to the UK next week to his wife and five children."
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Don't go confusing your own nocturnal fantasies with anyone else's champ, although I'm tipping if that was the case there would be a donkey and leather involved as well.
My point being that the media (left and right) can spin anything anyway they like.
All I see is a photo of a soldier and a dead dog.
My point being that the media (left and right) can spin anything anyway they like.
All I see is a photo of a soldier and a dead dog.
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Hempy does have a point though. A still photo is open to a myriad of interpretations by the viewer, hence the popularity of caption competitions. The publishers of these photos ascribe callous triumphalism to them and that is the reason for the perceived, and lucrative, outrage from the media and the liberal left.
That may be the case, but it should be acknowledged that there are many other possibilities. Don't the soldiers who were there doing their duty deserve some wriggle room?
That may be the case, but it should be acknowledged that there are many other possibilities. Don't the soldiers who were there doing their duty deserve some wriggle room?
Assuming the guys in the photos took part in the action that involved killing the enemy, I would like to shake their hands, buy them beers and congratulate them on a job well done.
For the f'wit who took the photos, I'd charge him for having a personal camera in-theatre and against orders. In my eyes, all blame lies squarely on his shoulders. Full stop.
Good to see Col Dewar defending this 'nothing event'. It would be nice to hear from a retired starred Regt officer with similar views. Of course, under our liberal democracy, everyone is entitled to comment on these photos. However, if you have not been there, seen it, or done it, don't be surprised if many of us serving don't give a sh1t about your own personal opinions.
For anyone in the RAF Regiment, don't let this minor hiccup detract from the pride you should feel for the work done over the last decade. Great effort and huge respect from those of us who understand your position.
For the f'wit who took the photos, I'd charge him for having a personal camera in-theatre and against orders. In my eyes, all blame lies squarely on his shoulders. Full stop.
Good to see Col Dewar defending this 'nothing event'. It would be nice to hear from a retired starred Regt officer with similar views. Of course, under our liberal democracy, everyone is entitled to comment on these photos. However, if you have not been there, seen it, or done it, don't be surprised if many of us serving don't give a sh1t about your own personal opinions.
For anyone in the RAF Regiment, don't let this minor hiccup detract from the pride you should feel for the work done over the last decade. Great effort and huge respect from those of us who understand your position.
Melmoth,
To explain that last line, what I'm trying to say is the media expect an outraged reaction to such photos, that's why it gets displayed, so that those among us who might think such things are beyond the limit as far as British soldiers are concerned will be outraged and demand an over the top response, or perhaps more likely, just as those publishing the photos hope they will. There is a fair amount of prodding and pushing here to get everyone thinking the same way. The comments on the BBC and ITV news have been delivered in grave tones about how the two in the photos have been suspended from operations. The R.A.F is reported to be taking this very seriously indeed and there's further sentiment from them about just how unacceptable it all is. They've got to say something now they're in the spotlight over it.
What about all the trophies brought back from foreign fields on the two world wars and other conflicts? where does anyone imagine the steel helmets, SS caps and lugers really came from? clothing stores and the armoury at the Hamburg Garrison?
FB
To explain that last line, what I'm trying to say is the media expect an outraged reaction to such photos, that's why it gets displayed, so that those among us who might think such things are beyond the limit as far as British soldiers are concerned will be outraged and demand an over the top response, or perhaps more likely, just as those publishing the photos hope they will. There is a fair amount of prodding and pushing here to get everyone thinking the same way. The comments on the BBC and ITV news have been delivered in grave tones about how the two in the photos have been suspended from operations. The R.A.F is reported to be taking this very seriously indeed and there's further sentiment from them about just how unacceptable it all is. They've got to say something now they're in the spotlight over it.
What about all the trophies brought back from foreign fields on the two world wars and other conflicts? where does anyone imagine the steel helmets, SS caps and lugers really came from? clothing stores and the armoury at the Hamburg Garrison?
FB
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Bad luck. He deserved it. Surely you see that, you sent his killer over there.
So why the sentimentality? 'Hearts and minds'? Killing fathers/sons is acceptable and will win the locals over but taking a photo of it isn't and wont?
Go and find a nice big tree to cuddle, just make sure you dont step on any ants..
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Remember the photo of Lt David Morgan in his Harrier, giving the thumbs up after returning from killing some Argies in the Falklands? Was he investigated and disciplined by the MoD, or was he given a medal?
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Beagle....The My Lai thing was stopped by a Helicopter Crew upon the Aircraft Commander ordering his Door Gunner to shoot any Soldier who attempted to harm a civilian....who then reported the killings....and after the cover-up was exposed by members of our Military....there were prosecutions.
You may recall a certain Army Major was part of that cover-up....and later became Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and Secretary of State.
Now as to the British Military and its long record of Atrocities since you seem to think it is the Yanks that have a monopoly on such things.....do we need to bring out the Laundry List you folks have run up in the past?
I don't suppose you have even heard of Bloody Sunday?
Take your smart assed arrogant remarks and shove them up your stern tube old Bean....and use plenty of Paste to soothe your hind end.
You kicked off yet another Yank/Tea Bag fuss by your comments.....Congratulations on disregarding the request by the Mods we ALL try to avoid such exchanges.
Care to explain why you just cannot help but stir things up by making remarks that any half wit knows would be insulting?
No...it is not "Banter".
No...It was not a mistake in your typing.
Yes...it was offensive and served no other purpose other than to show your crass arrogant attitude.
You may recall a certain Army Major was part of that cover-up....and later became Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and Secretary of State.
Now as to the British Military and its long record of Atrocities since you seem to think it is the Yanks that have a monopoly on such things.....do we need to bring out the Laundry List you folks have run up in the past?
I don't suppose you have even heard of Bloody Sunday?
Take your smart assed arrogant remarks and shove them up your stern tube old Bean....and use plenty of Paste to soothe your hind end.
You kicked off yet another Yank/Tea Bag fuss by your comments.....Congratulations on disregarding the request by the Mods we ALL try to avoid such exchanges.
Care to explain why you just cannot help but stir things up by making remarks that any half wit knows would be insulting?
No...it is not "Banter".
No...It was not a mistake in your typing.
Yes...it was offensive and served no other purpose other than to show your crass arrogant attitude.
I'm with Hempy, Party Animal & Genstabler 100%. Who is to say that the guy giving the thumbs up hasn't just been asked to confirm that the guy is dead ie thumbs up (affirmative). I'm getting really p****d off with tree hugging, ant crushing liberals and hope I'm around when the inevitable backlash against these holier than thou prats happens.
Rant over, What about the war artists WE commission to paint conflict for posterity.
Rant back on, I only hope some RAF VSO with a few stars on his/her shoulders has the balls to back these individuals.
Rant over, What about the war artists WE commission to paint conflict for posterity.
Rant back on, I only hope some RAF VSO with a few stars on his/her shoulders has the balls to back these individuals.
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Since the beginning of time, successful men have punched the air with joy when successful in competition, whether that competition be in skill at arms, hunting a beast or that modern allegory of war, sport.
We take modern western kids, nurtured in the soft coddled health and safety tree hugging world we now live in.
We train them to kill and tell them it is ok as long as ordered by a higher officer.
So we tell them killing is ok, but somehow they mustn't celebrate when they do it, so is it something to be ashamed of?
Otherwise, surely they would celebrate?
It's no wonder that our troops PTSD rate is so high with this lefty bullsh1t coming at them from the media.
I think that we should encourage them to celebrate, to help them believe that what they have done is a good thing not a shameful act.
If there is anything shameful about war it is that politicians let it happen. The protagonists should not walk about feeling bad about it.
We take modern western kids, nurtured in the soft coddled health and safety tree hugging world we now live in.
We train them to kill and tell them it is ok as long as ordered by a higher officer.
So we tell them killing is ok, but somehow they mustn't celebrate when they do it, so is it something to be ashamed of?
Otherwise, surely they would celebrate?
It's no wonder that our troops PTSD rate is so high with this lefty bullsh1t coming at them from the media.
I think that we should encourage them to celebrate, to help them believe that what they have done is a good thing not a shameful act.
If there is anything shameful about war it is that politicians let it happen. The protagonists should not walk about feeling bad about it.
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I must admit to being torn about these events. It seems very easy to be in the “oh no not again” camp and condemn them for what appears a Trophy of War photo of dead enemy combatants. It also is easy to join the "you haven't done combat - you don't know" brigade. But with some retrospect, like other recent events, I can’t help feeling very uncomfortable in doing either.
Firstly, as already said, it’s a photo, a snapshot in time. Our reaction is to what we perceive and not what the reality may be.
Secondly, once more we are engaging in trial by public and media opinion - these individuals already seem to have been condemned in the public eye (and many in this forum) even if they are subsequently found to have done no wrong. Should we condemn the soldier in front of the photo, the soldier taking the photo, whoever gave it to the media, anyone off photo not intervening etc?
Thirdly, I also find great discomfort in that they are once more being judged by people looking from the context of our safe part of the civilized world. Not the eyes of individuals who have just gone through the reality of upfront face-to-face combat, possibly for the first time. We seem to be increasingly living in a society that judge troops behavior in such environments as no difference to if it had happened in a UK High Street on a Saturday afternoon. The watchful eye of the media, civilian legal establishment and HSW etc waiting for one false step so they can condemn, sue and even imprison. The establishment having the benefit of months and even years of hindsight to look at high resolution pictures or even glorious HD footage frame-by-frame and then condemn through pure a black or white western legal and regulatory viewpoints while ignoring the context of what was a decision made between shades of grey. We used to tell a soldier that if the uniform facing them was blue and spoke French you shot it. We now tell them that they have to be a lawyer, HR expert, PR guru, HSW ninja (oh, and a soldier) and that the person shooting at you doesn’t even wear a uniform or follow any "rules". And then we are quick to condemn a few who make an error of judgment (if indeed it is) while high on adrenalin having just faced combat.
Fourthly, if I was there at that time, young again and in the aftermath of such an incident would I have been in such a photo. Its very easy to say no but….
Perhaps the only view I have is that I've always been comforted and reassured knowing the RAF Regt are risking their lives providing a force protection bubble to operate and live within. And still do.
Firstly, as already said, it’s a photo, a snapshot in time. Our reaction is to what we perceive and not what the reality may be.
Secondly, once more we are engaging in trial by public and media opinion - these individuals already seem to have been condemned in the public eye (and many in this forum) even if they are subsequently found to have done no wrong. Should we condemn the soldier in front of the photo, the soldier taking the photo, whoever gave it to the media, anyone off photo not intervening etc?
Thirdly, I also find great discomfort in that they are once more being judged by people looking from the context of our safe part of the civilized world. Not the eyes of individuals who have just gone through the reality of upfront face-to-face combat, possibly for the first time. We seem to be increasingly living in a society that judge troops behavior in such environments as no difference to if it had happened in a UK High Street on a Saturday afternoon. The watchful eye of the media, civilian legal establishment and HSW etc waiting for one false step so they can condemn, sue and even imprison. The establishment having the benefit of months and even years of hindsight to look at high resolution pictures or even glorious HD footage frame-by-frame and then condemn through pure a black or white western legal and regulatory viewpoints while ignoring the context of what was a decision made between shades of grey. We used to tell a soldier that if the uniform facing them was blue and spoke French you shot it. We now tell them that they have to be a lawyer, HR expert, PR guru, HSW ninja (oh, and a soldier) and that the person shooting at you doesn’t even wear a uniform or follow any "rules". And then we are quick to condemn a few who make an error of judgment (if indeed it is) while high on adrenalin having just faced combat.
Fourthly, if I was there at that time, young again and in the aftermath of such an incident would I have been in such a photo. Its very easy to say no but….
Perhaps the only view I have is that I've always been comforted and reassured knowing the RAF Regt are risking their lives providing a force protection bubble to operate and live within. And still do.
Last edited by Brewers Droop; 10th May 2014 at 13:06.
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Looks like they broke the rules on photographing enemy casualties and carrying cameras. Let's see them punished then. A reprimand should do it. Job done, move on.
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Brewer's Droop,
My own reaction earlier on this thread may not convey quite the same sentiment, but I agree with you entirely. My Nephew was serving with the very unit in question at the time, I doubt he was connected with the photos, I've just spoken to my Brother and he never said a word about it, mind you we were discussing more pressing family issues at the time.
FB
My own reaction earlier on this thread may not convey quite the same sentiment, but I agree with you entirely. My Nephew was serving with the very unit in question at the time, I doubt he was connected with the photos, I've just spoken to my Brother and he never said a word about it, mind you we were discussing more pressing family issues at the time.
FB
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Can I just ask anyone tho try to make sense of this ridiculous comment:
Well, so long as you'd be equally able just to shrug it off if it was your son/father lying there....
I've not seem anyone here, or any other forum simply shrug at this.
If this were my loved one I'd be VERY grateful that nothing bad had been done to the body, based on what often happened to western/soviet dead in Afghanistan, and has appeared on many photos or videos.
I don't expect the rocks or anyone else to show respect to someone who very recently had been trying to kill them, as it's not natural or useful.
Will the Taliban care, yes but they can't really make much PR from western troops DOING NOTHING to their dead after an attack!
As to whether it was a western soldier who was dead...........this pic followed a battle and people do die in battles.
Would I be upset if this pic showed a loved one of mine, well yes I would, but I'd be upset seeing ANY pic of a loved one who had died whether it was from a car accident or falling off a ladder while building a new school for Afghans.
Looking back to when I've been shot at or been in adrenalin fuelled situations I don't remember ever looking unhappy after the event.
So, what did I miss..................an outcry over two year old pics, when the daily TV news are still showing dead bodies from all conflicts around the world.
There are strategic reasons for not showing pics like these, but that often would not be the most prominent thing in the mind of a young rock at a time like this.
When the Brits leave Afghanistan this time round I think the afghans left behind will get massacred rather than the British and what's actually been going on in theatre will be more relevant than the odd picture.
Well, so long as you'd be equally able just to shrug it off if it was your son/father lying there....
I've not seem anyone here, or any other forum simply shrug at this.
If this were my loved one I'd be VERY grateful that nothing bad had been done to the body, based on what often happened to western/soviet dead in Afghanistan, and has appeared on many photos or videos.
I don't expect the rocks or anyone else to show respect to someone who very recently had been trying to kill them, as it's not natural or useful.
Will the Taliban care, yes but they can't really make much PR from western troops DOING NOTHING to their dead after an attack!
As to whether it was a western soldier who was dead...........this pic followed a battle and people do die in battles.
Would I be upset if this pic showed a loved one of mine, well yes I would, but I'd be upset seeing ANY pic of a loved one who had died whether it was from a car accident or falling off a ladder while building a new school for Afghans.
Looking back to when I've been shot at or been in adrenalin fuelled situations I don't remember ever looking unhappy after the event.
So, what did I miss..................an outcry over two year old pics, when the daily TV news are still showing dead bodies from all conflicts around the world.
There are strategic reasons for not showing pics like these, but that often would not be the most prominent thing in the mind of a young rock at a time like this.
When the Brits leave Afghanistan this time round I think the afghans left behind will get massacred rather than the British and what's actually been going on in theatre will be more relevant than the odd picture.