Inappropriate trophy photos
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A photo is a glimpse in time and you simply do not know what happened why it happened or what happened afterwards....
To put this in context please click on this link
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/shoc...lery-1.1282477
You will see a picture of a girl smiling over the body of her dead boyfriend on the beach as lifeguards try to revive him, looking up she sees the camera and reacts without thinking by smiling, hence the photograph that is totally out of context as to what was going on... I do hope those judging them also have an open mind as to photography.
And if you think the rocks images are bad, check out the other images by weeegee on the link.
To put this in context please click on this link
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/shoc...lery-1.1282477
You will see a picture of a girl smiling over the body of her dead boyfriend on the beach as lifeguards try to revive him, looking up she sees the camera and reacts without thinking by smiling, hence the photograph that is totally out of context as to what was going on... I do hope those judging them also have an open mind as to photography.
And if you think the rocks images are bad, check out the other images by weeegee on the link.
Are you suggesting that we've misunderstood the context of these photos Nutloose, and that these RAF Regt soldiers are not really standing, smiling and with thumbs up, over the bodies of insurgents they have just killed?
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It's not a question of being 'upset' by photos like this, it's a question of recognising that they're not helpful in terms of realising national strategy - which is the point of our forceful engagements in foreign lands.
If we want the deaths of serviceman to have been for a reason, then we should do everything we can to ensure that their deaths achieve the desired outcome. The desired outcome (in this particular punch up) is establishing the conditions in Afghanistan that will minimise the likelihood that exportable terrorism will come to the UK. To do that we need to separate insurgents from the general population whilst avoiding the creation of martyrs. This sort of thing runs contrary to that end, and is therefore not helpful. Hence conduct like this being against direct orders.
Tactical events have strategic impact in the modern, inter-connected world.
This is not a criticism of the rocks in question.
Sun.
If we want the deaths of serviceman to have been for a reason, then we should do everything we can to ensure that their deaths achieve the desired outcome. The desired outcome (in this particular punch up) is establishing the conditions in Afghanistan that will minimise the likelihood that exportable terrorism will come to the UK. To do that we need to separate insurgents from the general population whilst avoiding the creation of martyrs. This sort of thing runs contrary to that end, and is therefore not helpful. Hence conduct like this being against direct orders.
Tactical events have strategic impact in the modern, inter-connected world.
This is not a criticism of the rocks in question.
Sun.
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Yes, it is totally possible, if you were squatted down and the photographer said are you ok, a natural reaction could be to smile and give a thumbs up to say yes.... You just don't know with a photo, as it's a single second in time.
I agree with you Sun Who, except that I would add that there is a fundamental moral problem with photographing the bodies of dead enemy combatants in such a way that goes beyond national strategy, but that's just my opinion.
Nutloose, you're defending the indefensible, but I understand your reasons for doing so - they're British soldiers, and no one wants to believe/admit that we could be in the wrong (the marine executing the insurgent elicited much the same response on this forum).
Nutloose, you're defending the indefensible, but I understand your reasons for doing so - they're British soldiers, and no one wants to believe/admit that we could be in the wrong (the marine executing the insurgent elicited much the same response on this forum).
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On a slightly different note, has anybody from within the RAF and the RAF Regiment been held to account for the security failings as was recommended by the Defence Select Committee?
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Melmothtw, not defending the photographer as he is the one in the wrong but he could be from anywhere, but those in the images without a before and after, sorry you just don't know.
You have to make a judgement call on the balance of probabilities Nutloose. If you believe that what happened here is that these soldiers were administering some sort of last rites to the dead Taliban, and the photographer asked them if they were ok, and they then looked up, smiled and gave a thumbs up to say they were ok, at which point the photographer took a photo which then made its way into the public domain, and that there is nothing untoward going on here, then that's your prerogative I suppose.
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And what did you do during the war uncle?
Lets be totally blunt here, does anyone actually believe that, at this stage, these sort of photographs will have an affect on "hearts and minds"?
No.
If they are going to hate us they will be hating us already....
Lets be totally blunt here, does anyone actually believe that, at this stage, these sort of photographs will have an affect on "hearts and minds"?
No.If they are going to hate us they will be hating us already....
No thumbs up from me. I'd have opened a bottle of Chamagne and feasted on pork chops.
Would it be offensive if a photo appeared of an RAF pilot standing over the body of a dead German pilot he had shot down some time earlier with his thumbs up and smiling at the camera?
Although when Hptm Josef Zwernemann was shot down in a dog fight and bailed out of his aeroplane on 8 Apr 1944, the victorious USAAF Mustang pilot promptly murdered him by machine gunning him as he parachuted to earth - an act which would nowadays be considered to be a war crime.
There's an awful lot of faux indignation here. The photos do not show any of the bodies being degraded in any way. They show some pictures of military personnel who have just overcome a determined and well armed foe wearing Allied uniforms, following a lengthy fire fight, over exposed terrain, on one of the darkest nights of the year, in a combat zone. There's bound to be some relief in the victors faces. How do we know that these photos weren't taken as part of the follow up "evidence" collection? The stupidity here is in the smile and the thumbs up, but, as NutLoose says, we do not know the context in which these photos were taken. Not deleting the photos, particular after so many other incidents that have occurred in Afg, is somewhat stupid though.
Google dead soldier images and you will find lots of pictures of victors with dead enemies from almost every conflict in history since the camera was invented. That doesn't make it right, but it is a fact. At least the Taliban bodies weren't mutilated the way that certain Western soldiers have been out there; in Iran; in Somalia etc etc
As for
That's a "headline" worthy of The Sun or The Mirror! Let's have a little sense of reality here, the bad guys didn't get across the runway.
Google dead soldier images and you will find lots of pictures of victors with dead enemies from almost every conflict in history since the camera was invented. That doesn't make it right, but it is a fact. At least the Taliban bodies weren't mutilated the way that certain Western soldiers have been out there; in Iran; in Somalia etc etc
As for
nearly take-out the (then) third in-line to the throne
Let's have a little sense of reality here. the bad guys didn't even get across the runway.
Indefensible Conduct at Camp Bastion | National Review Online
Google dead soldier images and you will find lots of pictures of victors with dead enemies from almost every conflict in history since the camera was invented.
There's bound to be some relief in the victors faces.
I could go on but I'm tired now, and to be frank if you don't get it by now you never will. As the saying goes, there are none more blind than those that choose not to see....
The people who are most upset by these photographs are those who have never put themselves in harm's way and who have never experienced the feeling of having an enemy actively trying to kill them, people who never have and never will stand up to fight, physically, for what is right. People who live blissfully in an insulated little bubble of safety and security which since the dawn of time has been provided with the blood of servicemen. Under these circumstances I am really struggling to give a toss about the faux outrage Islington liberals spluttering into their lattes over photos of morbid reality.
*Oh and by the way - I hate lattes!
Don't be so obtuse Mellie. I am not denigrating the losses sustained by the USMC that night in anyway. Indeed they and we were very lucky that there were not more losses that night. Have a look at the rest of the pictures, they are out there. Most of them could well be evidence pictures that have been leaked for God knows what reason. Let the P'n'SS/police investigation do its job first.
My point is that in this modern world we seem very quick to criticise and claim things that aren't factually true regarding what happened in WW1, or WW2, or Korea, or Vietnam, or Palestine, or I could go on. But as you say, there's none so blind.
My point is that in this modern world we seem very quick to criticise and claim things that aren't factually true regarding what happened in WW1, or WW2, or Korea, or Vietnam, or Palestine, or I could go on. But as you say, there's none so blind.
Well, as I said previously Roland, I wonder if folks would be quite so ready to offer mitigation if it were Taliban standing over dead British soldiers.
Yes, let's see what the investigation turns up.
Yes, let's see what the investigation turns up.
There is nothing new in photographs of dead enemies. This was happening a hundred years ago:
KING CECIL CAPTAIN (Q 58680)
KING CECIL CAPTAIN (Q 58681)
SULLIVAN W (Q 110306)
There are many WW1 images of this nature, albeit most show a sober reflection rather than a smiling face and a thumbs up. However, most show the 'victors' in the same shot as the deceased.
KING CECIL CAPTAIN (Q 58680)
KING CECIL CAPTAIN (Q 58681)
SULLIVAN W (Q 110306)
There are many WW1 images of this nature, albeit most show a sober reflection rather than a smiling face and a thumbs up. However, most show the 'victors' in the same shot as the deceased.