Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
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Mines, MRE, or leaflets
AA62 and Bts70,
I don't recall any clearances to drop mines in my time. I did see what looked like a big blue torpedo described to me as a mine in 47AD Trg Wg. It did have the shackle welded on as AA62 describes - I believed it to be just an artefact belonging to a museum. Not sure if it ever got moved from LYN to BZN.
I do remember attempts to resurrect a role fit with shed loads of rollers which covered the floor all the way to 245. Certainly an ankle breaker. This was developed by JATE sometime in the 90s for free dropping tri-wall boxes containing pouched meals for HUMAID and had also been proposed for dropping Psyops leaflets when the need arose sometime in the early 2000s. It never made it into the RTS on a permanent basis but was held to be issued against any SD where the old JATE report would be dusted down and issued as the authority. (I think they still call them CLEs in new money). However I very much doubt if it would have been signed up in this day and age.
All the rollers were required to support the floppy bottoms of the cardboard boxes. If I recall they were restrained with 1200 lb cord. Cord may have been used to lace up the boxes and tied off to a floor point or anchor cable which when ejected opened the boxes scattering the contents in the breeze. Hence no wood could be used for fear of harming the recipients. Restraint was virtually non existent as it would have been dangerous if not impossible to access over all those rollers to remove it.
We could not do this with the J Roller system. probably another capability we no longer have. Just goes to show the versatility of Skydel. I don't even know if we had clearances for free dropping at all even with CDS baseboards from the J. (no reason why we should not have though)
I used to like doing a bit of hands on and even assisted in an inflight roll change during a transit from AD role to Para along the lines described by AA62 and Bts 70. I still curse AML for all those damn drop nose pins. I know there was thousands of them in the role equipment bay but, FFS they could have done with a squirt of PX 24 and a little attention. the problem was only compounded by bashing them with the only handy thing on the aircraft.- The QR Chain tensioners!
I don't recall any clearances to drop mines in my time. I did see what looked like a big blue torpedo described to me as a mine in 47AD Trg Wg. It did have the shackle welded on as AA62 describes - I believed it to be just an artefact belonging to a museum. Not sure if it ever got moved from LYN to BZN.
I do remember attempts to resurrect a role fit with shed loads of rollers which covered the floor all the way to 245. Certainly an ankle breaker. This was developed by JATE sometime in the 90s for free dropping tri-wall boxes containing pouched meals for HUMAID and had also been proposed for dropping Psyops leaflets when the need arose sometime in the early 2000s. It never made it into the RTS on a permanent basis but was held to be issued against any SD where the old JATE report would be dusted down and issued as the authority. (I think they still call them CLEs in new money). However I very much doubt if it would have been signed up in this day and age.
All the rollers were required to support the floppy bottoms of the cardboard boxes. If I recall they were restrained with 1200 lb cord. Cord may have been used to lace up the boxes and tied off to a floor point or anchor cable which when ejected opened the boxes scattering the contents in the breeze. Hence no wood could be used for fear of harming the recipients. Restraint was virtually non existent as it would have been dangerous if not impossible to access over all those rollers to remove it.
We could not do this with the J Roller system. probably another capability we no longer have. Just goes to show the versatility of Skydel. I don't even know if we had clearances for free dropping at all even with CDS baseboards from the J. (no reason why we should not have though)
I used to like doing a bit of hands on and even assisted in an inflight roll change during a transit from AD role to Para along the lines described by AA62 and Bts 70. I still curse AML for all those damn drop nose pins. I know there was thousands of them in the role equipment bay but, FFS they could have done with a squirt of PX 24 and a little attention. the problem was only compounded by bashing them with the only handy thing on the aircraft.- The QR Chain tensioners!
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10K tensioner formed part of the aircraft toolkit but tended to damage the adjacent floor in the hands of a mover (if anyone's offended sorry), my much preferred on board tool was the crash axe at 245.
The drop noses were stiff for a reason as too loose a pin resulted in having to drive the pins through when they "dropped" inside the trans beams. Method in the annoyance you see.
Sorry for the ROLE drift, just another chapter in the mighty K, I used to ask all the new lads to shuffle of and find the first aircraft type that the "scrap metal" was ever fitted to.
The drop noses were stiff for a reason as too loose a pin resulted in having to drive the pins through when they "dropped" inside the trans beams. Method in the annoyance you see.
Sorry for the ROLE drift, just another chapter in the mighty K, I used to ask all the new lads to shuffle of and find the first aircraft type that the "scrap metal" was ever fitted to.
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Right then Smuj - just for you
If this works it should be a short clip from the Lightning day out.
Hope you like it.
veryveryfrighteningindeed - YouTube
If this works it should be a short clip from the Lightning day out.
Hope you like it.
veryveryfrighteningindeed - YouTube
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If the pins were put in horizontal rather than vertical then the ends did not drop down!!! - Thus preventing the need to use a tensioner.
For those who disliked the Skydel system on the 'K' it was even worse on the VC10 - fitting the side guidance beams in the door position with cargo pallets in place was always designed to test ones patience.
For those who disliked the Skydel system on the 'K' it was even worse on the VC10 - fitting the side guidance beams in the door position with cargo pallets in place was always designed to test ones patience.
Chickenlover,
What a real treat. Perhaps I've said it before. The over wing tanks take me right back to Akrotiri in 74 when we did a "mini airdex" to Malta. 4 F6s over wing tanks, and a straight trip to Luqa I believe. As Self loading Freight I got a 70 Squadron Albert there, and a 70 Squadron Whistling tit back. Thanks for that sir, you've made an old, bald bloke very happy.
Bts70,
Mention of the chock tensioner brings to mind a story that seemed well known in the fleet in my day. It involved a fly by, somewhere, with ramp and door open when a tensioner came adrift from its stowage. Now, the story I got was that it went through two floors of Air Traffic Control. Anyone know the truth of this ?
We have yet to hear the tales of Pete T, who in my day was something of a legend. I'm sure there are many more. Keep em coming chaps. Does Coff realise what he started here ?
Smudge
What a real treat. Perhaps I've said it before. The over wing tanks take me right back to Akrotiri in 74 when we did a "mini airdex" to Malta. 4 F6s over wing tanks, and a straight trip to Luqa I believe. As Self loading Freight I got a 70 Squadron Albert there, and a 70 Squadron Whistling tit back. Thanks for that sir, you've made an old, bald bloke very happy.
Bts70,
Mention of the chock tensioner brings to mind a story that seemed well known in the fleet in my day. It involved a fly by, somewhere, with ramp and door open when a tensioner came adrift from its stowage. Now, the story I got was that it went through two floors of Air Traffic Control. Anyone know the truth of this ?
We have yet to hear the tales of Pete T, who in my day was something of a legend. I'm sure there are many more. Keep em coming chaps. Does Coff realise what he started here ?
Smudge
dragartist,
I have seen what I believe were (long time ago-no log book entry as a memory jogger) bar mines fitted in the a/c. They were inert but still rolled up to the a/c covered with tarpaulins. Someone must know ! Around that time lots of things were of necessity done without the 'correct' clearances or even accurate recording. Does anyone remember the 'snatch' done by the 'K' before the airfield was opened 'down south' ? If not I will describe when I return in a weeks time.
My tale of the sequel to 'Juggernaut'.
It occurred to someone further up the food chain that if the Juggernaut scenario happened for real and the villians were on the ship then we had no response. Thus the 'K' gunship project was born. You have probably heard how the USAF do it with a dedicated a/c with mucho firepower. We of course did it rather differently. The trial was conducted at Lyneham with airdrop instructors from the OCU. I was supposed to be on the trials but have never been into guns so another ALM instructor did them.
No expense was expended !
The set up was a GPMG mounted on a modified camera mount firing firing out of the port para door. Those who have stood there and gazed out from this opening will appreciate the very real likelehood of shooting off parts of the airframe. Stops were fitted which greatly restricted the field of fire.
I think a couple of sorties were flown and the trial written up.
The intention was that SF would do it on a currency basis but that all foundered on who would fund the extra flying hours and ammunition. So it was pigeonholed.
Many years later a 'new' role appreared in the Aircrew Manual, that of 'Fire Suppression'. Most assumed it was to do with firebombing. When I did the HEART job I spoke to the chap i/c the Herc publication(he also did the VC10)
and explained about the confusion. After tracking down the original report we agreed a better description was that of 'Suppressive Fire'.
I wonder if it has been carried over to the 'J' ?
From the 'how close would you like me file'. Airbridge tanking.
I have seen what I believe were (long time ago-no log book entry as a memory jogger) bar mines fitted in the a/c. They were inert but still rolled up to the a/c covered with tarpaulins. Someone must know ! Around that time lots of things were of necessity done without the 'correct' clearances or even accurate recording. Does anyone remember the 'snatch' done by the 'K' before the airfield was opened 'down south' ? If not I will describe when I return in a weeks time.
My tale of the sequel to 'Juggernaut'.
It occurred to someone further up the food chain that if the Juggernaut scenario happened for real and the villians were on the ship then we had no response. Thus the 'K' gunship project was born. You have probably heard how the USAF do it with a dedicated a/c with mucho firepower. We of course did it rather differently. The trial was conducted at Lyneham with airdrop instructors from the OCU. I was supposed to be on the trials but have never been into guns so another ALM instructor did them.
No expense was expended !
The set up was a GPMG mounted on a modified camera mount firing firing out of the port para door. Those who have stood there and gazed out from this opening will appreciate the very real likelehood of shooting off parts of the airframe. Stops were fitted which greatly restricted the field of fire.
I think a couple of sorties were flown and the trial written up.
The intention was that SF would do it on a currency basis but that all foundered on who would fund the extra flying hours and ammunition. So it was pigeonholed.
Many years later a 'new' role appreared in the Aircrew Manual, that of 'Fire Suppression'. Most assumed it was to do with firebombing. When I did the HEART job I spoke to the chap i/c the Herc publication(he also did the VC10)
and explained about the confusion. After tracking down the original report we agreed a better description was that of 'Suppressive Fire'.
I wonder if it has been carried over to the 'J' ?
From the 'how close would you like me file'. Airbridge tanking.
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Bts 70. The Skydel drawings I saw went back to 1949. (Blackburn or Trianco??)The last surviving copy of the type record (all the stress calcs) was dated 1953 updated by Hawker Sydney some time in the 60s. I passed this to Boscombe Down for safe keeping when we moved out of Wyton. Not even sure if the DA had a copy so I sent them one too. (no storage space at Shabby Wood). It was at the time when it was identified we had a vertical CoG issue when loading all the side stores onto MSP rigs to get to the magical or mythical 18,000 lbs (8000 and some odd kgs) with or without the main parachutes for the forward load which were on the aft load. The dangers of those responsible not understanding basic mechanics of overturning moments. They bandied about 3g or 1.5g with such confidence that they knew what they were talking about. When we did the sums there was less than 0.5g on some of the piggy back rigs even without the side stores. In a nut shell, the Skydel beams would have failed had the brakes been applied too hard with an MSP or two finishing up in the cockpit. I think we were OK for ballast loads and the ammunition rig but all the others would have needed an OEC to be dropped. Perhaps your pins should have been Grade A parts and certainly not subjected to hitting with a 10K coupling.
Only tensioner stories that spring to mind are the legendary Pete Tyas, sadly departed, and his antics of placing chains and tensioners in unsuspecting co-pilots' bags down route....the first time they picked them up, after Pete had 'kindly' loaded them on the crewbus was just before Customs clearance...
They were then stuck with rather heavy bags for the nightstop.
Then there was the story of him dispatching SF wearing a blonde wig and tutu.
And the one about the shower down the back, when full of pongoes
And the one (that may have been him or a GE) when he pretended to have been on the roof all the way from Lye to Norway....
And the one 'exploding loadmaster' post eating a Lamb Jalfrezi
Than man was a legend.
So sad that he did not live a full and happy retirement......
He and the late George Brown must me making mischief upstairs.
I keep their names alive by regularly recounting stories....what great times!
What about the one in New Florida 2000 with ML and his white trousers......another 'character', albeit he is still very much around!
Happy to expand on any or all of the above, but the names on this thread must be well aware......!
Cheers
They were then stuck with rather heavy bags for the nightstop.
Then there was the story of him dispatching SF wearing a blonde wig and tutu.
And the one about the shower down the back, when full of pongoes
And the one (that may have been him or a GE) when he pretended to have been on the roof all the way from Lye to Norway....
And the one 'exploding loadmaster' post eating a Lamb Jalfrezi
Than man was a legend.
So sad that he did not live a full and happy retirement......
He and the late George Brown must me making mischief upstairs.
I keep their names alive by regularly recounting stories....what great times!
What about the one in New Florida 2000 with ML and his white trousers......another 'character', albeit he is still very much around!
Happy to expand on any or all of the above, but the names on this thread must be well aware......!
Cheers
Aahh Bunta,
The names always come up, whenever the Albert fleet have a chinwag. Any or all of the great Tyas stories would always be welcome. I always enjoyed the pongoes being drilled in the monsoon, and the Brigadier being involved. Meanwhile, I walk every week with a bloke who plays golf with ML, it appears he is as irascible as ever, and determined to disco his way to the end. Keep em coming.
Smudge
The names always come up, whenever the Albert fleet have a chinwag. Any or all of the great Tyas stories would always be welcome. I always enjoyed the pongoes being drilled in the monsoon, and the Brigadier being involved. Meanwhile, I walk every week with a bloke who plays golf with ML, it appears he is as irascible as ever, and determined to disco his way to the end. Keep em coming.
Smudge
Dragartist,
I suspect they've all gone off to RIAT. Meanwhile, I was lucky enough to do an SF trip which was an exchange at Hurlbert Field with 8th SOS. Now these boys really are the business and were the chaps who last dropped the Daisy cutters (BLU-82) over Kuwait in GW1, and lost an aircraft in the process. It was a massive bomb, as they explained it, designed to clear an area of forest to provide a helipad. They found it most effective, dropped amongst troop formations, having a similar effect on anyone who was taller than 2 feet. A wiki link for anyone interested.
BLU-82 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Smudge
I suspect they've all gone off to RIAT. Meanwhile, I was lucky enough to do an SF trip which was an exchange at Hurlbert Field with 8th SOS. Now these boys really are the business and were the chaps who last dropped the Daisy cutters (BLU-82) over Kuwait in GW1, and lost an aircraft in the process. It was a massive bomb, as they explained it, designed to clear an area of forest to provide a helipad. They found it most effective, dropped amongst troop formations, having a similar effect on anyone who was taller than 2 feet. A wiki link for anyone interested.
BLU-82 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Smudge
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AA62 mines
JATE flying section carried out the first airborne mine delivery once the sequence was developed in 1982. The load was 16 stores in sticks of 4 restrained with chocks, which meant that the AD team had to step over the first stick to release the second etc. There were a number of strops and lines suspended from the para cables. 1 for the drogue and 2 for the arming pins on the 2 fuses on each mine containing 600lbs of Torpex.
Inevitably with this cats cradle one of the despatchers, Pete E******* was carried over the ramp at 100ft over Kilderkin range. He was retrieved with no apparent distress, being as mad as a box of frogs anyway.
The Navy sent down divers to measure the distance between stores on the sea bed and declared that we could mine the Argie ports in three weeks.
This joyous news was received with dismay.
Inevitably with this cats cradle one of the despatchers, Pete E******* was carried over the ramp at 100ft over Kilderkin range. He was retrieved with no apparent distress, being as mad as a box of frogs anyway.
The Navy sent down divers to measure the distance between stores on the sea bed and declared that we could mine the Argie ports in three weeks.
This joyous news was received with dismay.
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That's interesting Dougie, I did not go to JATE till mid 90s.
So do I assume the mines were on skid boards and chocked like ME one Tons. AA62 mentions shed loads of Skydel rollers hence my association with the leaflet or MRE tri wall boxes. Perhaps the floor loading demanded more roller.
I thought the blue torpedo in 47 Trg Wg over by the Dak at Lyn was more akin to the US Daisy Cutter despatch method. It looked longer than the aircraft was wide.
Do you know if any of this is documented in the public domain. I have recently been reading Euen Southby Tailyour about Harrys proposed exploits in the South Atlantic. Harry will certainly be at RIAT.
I had several trips to YPG and Laguna Parachute test facility where they still had the trials kit for the Kistler launcher. This was similar to the daisy cutter in concept but much heavier. If I recall correctly it was similar to our PURIBAD concept in that once extracted the payload separated from a Type V platform and did its stuff.
Oddly that project; ran out of Irvin California was manned by Ex UK Air Despatchers probably of the same vintage as your Pete E.
Smudge, Thanks for the info on the Daisy Cutter during GW1. I was unaware of this. My knowledge of the Daisy Cutter was from reading books about Vietnam.
Drag.
So do I assume the mines were on skid boards and chocked like ME one Tons. AA62 mentions shed loads of Skydel rollers hence my association with the leaflet or MRE tri wall boxes. Perhaps the floor loading demanded more roller.
I thought the blue torpedo in 47 Trg Wg over by the Dak at Lyn was more akin to the US Daisy Cutter despatch method. It looked longer than the aircraft was wide.
Do you know if any of this is documented in the public domain. I have recently been reading Euen Southby Tailyour about Harrys proposed exploits in the South Atlantic. Harry will certainly be at RIAT.
I had several trips to YPG and Laguna Parachute test facility where they still had the trials kit for the Kistler launcher. This was similar to the daisy cutter in concept but much heavier. If I recall correctly it was similar to our PURIBAD concept in that once extracted the payload separated from a Type V platform and did its stuff.
Oddly that project; ran out of Irvin California was manned by Ex UK Air Despatchers probably of the same vintage as your Pete E.
Smudge, Thanks for the info on the Daisy Cutter during GW1. I was unaware of this. My knowledge of the Daisy Cutter was from reading books about Vietnam.
Drag.
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As far as I can remember The mine role was 5g, this is where the modified silver 5g chocks came from. At least thats what I was told many moons ago as a young Air Despatcher.
It was even then, a relic from days gone by.
It was even then, a relic from days gone by.
Hi Doug......
I remember vividly when you stabbed my headset pad as we depressurised for a drop on JATE.... It had just been for servicing, and the pad was clearly airtight...so as we climbed the cabin, it expanded and dragged itself off of my head.
'Wedge' is at Brize still as a civvie; he's twice the man he used to be!
Cafe Michelle......now there's another story!
Cheers
I remember vividly when you stabbed my headset pad as we depressurised for a drop on JATE.... It had just been for servicing, and the pad was clearly airtight...so as we climbed the cabin, it expanded and dragged itself off of my head.
'Wedge' is at Brize still as a civvie; he's twice the man he used to be!
Cafe Michelle......now there's another story!
Cheers
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from the fighter control website,
explains why I couldn't find any photos,
ring any bells chickenlover?
Re: Canberra 40th Anniversary
by andrewn » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:19 pm
Sheff wrote:
Ah yes that was a good day although it was a bit of a disappointment for photography. The RAF got us a Hercules to take some air-to-airs of the Canberras during the morning but the damned thing went u/s after take-off so the sortie was scrubbed and we came straight back to Wyton without so much as a single picture grr!
Interesting as I was going through some of my audio recordings yesterday and this one came up... The Herc crew actually fixed the 'snag' and were VERY keen to fly the sortie, even offering to stay late to accommodate. Unfortunately "Sunray" (the Boss) decided otherwise as the priority was for all the Canberra's to be lined up for the ground photoshoot.
andrewn
Location: Cheshire
explains why I couldn't find any photos,
ring any bells chickenlover?
Re: Canberra 40th Anniversary
by andrewn » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:19 pm
Sheff wrote:
Ah yes that was a good day although it was a bit of a disappointment for photography. The RAF got us a Hercules to take some air-to-airs of the Canberras during the morning but the damned thing went u/s after take-off so the sortie was scrubbed and we came straight back to Wyton without so much as a single picture grr!
Interesting as I was going through some of my audio recordings yesterday and this one came up... The Herc crew actually fixed the 'snag' and were VERY keen to fly the sortie, even offering to stay late to accommodate. Unfortunately "Sunray" (the Boss) decided otherwise as the priority was for all the Canberra's to be lined up for the ground photoshoot.
andrewn
Location: Cheshire
Hatchet,
There must be some pictures to post somewhere. Meanwhile, anyone remember the Deci Sched ? It has some serious memories for me. Having been accepted for the GEs course in 1988, I then surprisingly got promoted to Chf Tech, and became surplus to requirements for ALSS. So, they put me in charge of ALSS GEs section for a few months. During that time, I managed to convince ATFOC that we were short of GEs and volunteered for various trips, despite not having done the course. Unfortunately, my attempt at a Carribean trainer was repulsed, but they allowed me to do lots of Deci Scheds, and once a Tanker Rotation to MPA. Now, perhaps I'm just sad but the Deci Sched was a great trip for me. Out on Friday morning, through Wildenrath and down to Deci, a steady flight back to Wildenrath for a nightstop and back home on Saturday morning. For someone who was not a GE I enjoyed the chance to have a go, and I'm sure it helped my progress through the course, when I did it. I'm equally sure that I could recite the VOR beacons that were used for the whole trip at one time, but age and dementia take their toll and I struggle these days. I know that the crews who put up with the "pseudo GE" were a good bunch.
Smudge
There must be some pictures to post somewhere. Meanwhile, anyone remember the Deci Sched ? It has some serious memories for me. Having been accepted for the GEs course in 1988, I then surprisingly got promoted to Chf Tech, and became surplus to requirements for ALSS. So, they put me in charge of ALSS GEs section for a few months. During that time, I managed to convince ATFOC that we were short of GEs and volunteered for various trips, despite not having done the course. Unfortunately, my attempt at a Carribean trainer was repulsed, but they allowed me to do lots of Deci Scheds, and once a Tanker Rotation to MPA. Now, perhaps I'm just sad but the Deci Sched was a great trip for me. Out on Friday morning, through Wildenrath and down to Deci, a steady flight back to Wildenrath for a nightstop and back home on Saturday morning. For someone who was not a GE I enjoyed the chance to have a go, and I'm sure it helped my progress through the course, when I did it. I'm equally sure that I could recite the VOR beacons that were used for the whole trip at one time, but age and dementia take their toll and I struggle these days. I know that the crews who put up with the "pseudo GE" were a good bunch.
Smudge