Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

Old 5th Aug 2014, 13:11
  #1001 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 17,436


Child 'Stowaway' Found Dead On US Military Plane
NutLoose is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2014, 13:55
  #1002 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 62
Posts: 6,995
Many thanks AA62 ...

I'd assumed there to be some flexibility ... but still quite an ingenious solution. I guess it also helps to drop a full APFC thus reducing the "slosh" factor

Brian ...

Your full set of RAF Maps ... Would they be the old Green & White (square
folded) RNav Mecators or Low Level TOPOs ? It would be really great to have a scanned image posted on the thread of the run in to the DZ mentioned above ... if that's not too much trouble

Nutty ...

Very sad story. When I travelled in India on Business the manned Bashas close to the runways/taxiways to prevent such tragedies were very noticeable. I'm sure some of our Herc friends will have experienced similar desperate attempts.

Best ...

Coff.

PS. I'll post a few more of Drag's pics tonight if that's OK with everybody
CoffmanStarter is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2014, 16:44
  #1003 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: UK East Anglia
Age: 62
Posts: 670
Bollox. yes Coff as AA62 says they were as tuff as old boots. The rubber was about 1/2" thick. Primarily seen under Wokkas. Two went on an MSP with pumping equipment what we called FARP (Forward Air Refuelling Point).


the reason for separating was to reduce the impact forces when it hit the sea. had the cradle remained attached it may have pierced it as the flat board was like a belly flop.


The later versions used eco friendly adhesives which were not thought to be as tough as those using sulphur and solvents.


in the early 2000s we were transitioning to the Mk2. As I was leaving the Mk3 was in development.


part of the Qualification testing was a static drop from x feet onto a concrete pad. Similar to testing UN TDG chemical drums but at room temp.


TSW were a helpful crowd along with the Battlefield Utilities IPT. we had a problem supplying the end fittings for the hose. They were like rocking horse droppings. Receiving units had improvised and bastardised.


Note the Elephants trunk tied to the top of the capsule. The square bit of canvas was to cover the floor beam to prevent the forward load snagging on its way out. It was traveling very fast from the front of the aircraft with the 7ft extractor. The rollers would have been red hot with a 10ft. the J rollers were inferior to Skydel.
dragartist is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2014, 16:46
  #1004 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 62
Posts: 6,995
Drag old chap ... I see you've just signed on ... So here are a couple of your pics if you'd like to offer some narrative before jetting off





Many thanks for the tech info above on the APFC

Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 5th Aug 2014 at 17:28.
CoffmanStarter is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2014, 17:00
  #1005 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 1,019
Coff,


They are Joint Operations Graphic - Air, Series 1501 AIR, Edition 1. The projection is Transverse Mercator. IIRC they were fairly recent in '68/69 and ahead of what was being used back in UK - I think our 1 : 250,000 series changed in about '72 at Lyneham.


SWMBO and I have completely forgotten how we put pics' etc on here - any chance you could PM us your email address and we'll send the scanned map on to you as an attachment.


AA62,


Sorry, I have been lurking, but as I explained before I can only recall a few slides from those days. Our planning application is before the committee tomorrow, so if we get the nod it will be full steam ahead to sort out our stuff!


No1 son, who was born in Changi Hospital, landed at Changi in his Airbus 350 last week ( showing the new jet in HK & Singapore - lucky devil! ) and asked the handling agent if he could arrange for him to visit the place of his birth. No chance came the reply - the hospital is derelict and fenced-off with no visitors allowed because of the ghosts .
Brian 48nav is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2014, 17:25
  #1006 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 62
Posts: 6,995
Brian ... PM sent

Good luck tomorrow ...

Best ...

Coff.
CoffmanStarter is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2014, 17:46
  #1007 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: UK East Anglia
Age: 62
Posts: 670
Thanx Coff! being on 2 hrs NTM for so many years Speedos, Raybans, Emergency rations and soap on a rope in bag already!


First pic is a JATE neg what I thought was the last of the last HSPs discussed above several pages back.


Second shot is a DERA neg from Sept 2000. Not sure if it was testing LLRP (Low Level Reserve) or the LLP demo with the GQ of Irvin reserve. neither of which would have been viable at that altitude (200ft) hence the lake as a bit of a effort.


The CA release of the era allowed sending troops to war without a reserve. Work the ethics out for that in this day and age.


Signing out for a week now OK!
dragartist is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2014, 17:56
  #1008 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 62
Posts: 6,995
Have a good one Drag old chap
CoffmanStarter is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 06:24
  #1009 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 62
Posts: 6,995
Good morning all ...

Here is the final pic from our good friend Dragartist. I believe it adds to the exploits described by Dougie M and AA62 in dropping "One Ton Waterproof Cardboard" loads to the Royal Navy ... Hopefully AA62 can add a bit more



Coff.
CoffmanStarter is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 06:55
  #1010 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: sussex
Posts: 1,606
Coffman,
the HSP is more my era. Looks like a CVR (T) (Combat Vehicle Tracked-recce) on it. The version we dropped was the Scorpion, which looked like a small tank (someone will have a pic I am sure). Great fun to drive around , very speedy with the Jaguar engine. I was never quite sure of the likely scenario for using them. You could only carry one HSP per a/c whereas you could get two MSP's in. So a lot of space would be wasted out of not a huge number of a/c in the stream. Heaviest HSP I dropped was a grader at 35000 lbs. I think the Scorpion was more like 25000 lbs
ancientaviator62 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 07:00
  #1011 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: sussex
Posts: 1,606
dragartist,
as I recall the SOP for OPS was to lower the drop height to 600 feet and the troops to jump without reserves on the premise at that height no time would be available to activate the reserve in the case of an emergency. Especially at night. This was with the old PX Mk4 static line main parachute.
ancientaviator62 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 07:08
  #1012 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: sussex
Posts: 1,606
Nut Loose,
the stowaway almost certainly climbed in there after the a/c had started and the crew door closed. Given the way the public can access some of these airports he could well have climbed in at any time the a/c stopped say at the holding point. We had regulations ref stowaways and hijackers etc .
A ground eng received an award for preventing such an occurrence. No doubt someone has the details. When we did Op Vigour (the Somalia Op) we had to be very careful in this respect at some of the up country strips.
But there is of course the famous story of the 'K' and the golfer !
ancientaviator62 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 07:11
  #1013 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: sussex
Posts: 1,606
Coffman,
not a lot to add really to the pic of the waterproofs. These are the sort that were dropped to the task force during Op Corporate. They would float but not indefinitely !
ancientaviator62 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 07:23
  #1014 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: sussex
Posts: 1,606


Pic of an MSP landing on KK DZ. Brian should enjoy this. You can see the TROC (transfer release operating cable) whipping in the airflow. This cable triggered the pull of the main parachutes from the aft face of the platform to the top of the load so it could descend in a horizontal manner. It was crude but it (usually) worked. Other transfer methods were tried, like the one that had a form of railway points system, but they all had drawbacks.
After the drop it was reeled in the the ALM and stowed at FS245.
This is a lead in to an airdrop tale which I will relate next time, but which may make dragartist spill his holiday cocktail !
ancientaviator62 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 07:37
  #1015 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 1,608
Thought this might be of interest to the Herc types posting here -

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDispla...inst-f-16.aspx

Is this something you trained for also, and did you ever find a way to defeat the fighter?
melmothtw is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 07:57
  #1016 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bury St. Edmunds
Age: 60
Posts: 539
Coff thanks for posting pics at #1004 above. Out of curiosity, what was the drop height for the last one with troops? Looks a bit sporting at 500-600 ft AGL....

MB
Madbob is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 09:43
  #1017 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 67
Posts: 2,062
Melmoth,

Fighter affiliation was definitely part of 'K' training, certainly for SF crews. I think I may have posted this before, it's a RNoAF F16 which we had around an hours play with in Feb/Mar 1994. During Exercise "Winter Deployment"



As an AGE I was usually lucky enough to grab a para door position as look out, which gave me a chance to get involved in what was going on, instead of my hammock. In this instance I was positioned on the floor to the left of the Captain. I do know that for the Captain or Co, whoever was flying, it was hard work, and they were often drenched in sweat after a good session. I don't know about "beating" the fighter, I think the basic principle was to avoid being killed, run him out of fuel and then progress to the next TP. I do remember some fighter affil with a Macchi trainer during the run up to GW1, in UAE, when he came directly from behind us and turned with us easily, until we lowered the ramp with the GPMG mounted on it and the Loadmaster seated and ready to shoot. He pulled a few G, but our Captain claimed a kill

I'm sure the operators will know a lot more than myself.

Smudge
smujsmith is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 09:55
  #1018 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 1,608
Cheers for the info Smudge, very interesting. Yes of course, by 'defeating' the fighter I meant avoid being shot down yourself as opposed to shooting down the fighter, though the GPMG story sounds a good one ;-)
melmothtw is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 10:09
  #1019 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: sussex
Posts: 1,606
melmothtw,
fighter affiliation as it was called was a part of the Herc tanker course which was carried out before the crews went down south. We used the Phantom and Harrier for normal course work but all manner of other a/c have been used in this role as smudge and others can testify. Did we ever 'win' ?
Well in this context winning was staying alive ! The only real hope was low and slow BUT you had to see him first ! Not easy even with the cupola manned and observers at the para doors. In fighter affil practice you usually knew they were around. This may not always be the case. Hopefully one of the drivers will be along to contribute.
As I related in my post the GPMG 'fit' (seems over the top to call it an installation) was in response to a perceived ground threat and was only mounted in the para door. It could be mounted to fire out of the ramp a la Chinook but apart from as a scare tactic as in smudge's story I doubt it would be very effective.
For a description of an Argentinian Herc being downed by a Sea Harrier just 'google' it.

Last edited by ancientaviator62; 6th Aug 2014 at 10:12. Reason: update
ancientaviator62 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 10:24
  #1020 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: sussex
Posts: 1,606
madbob,
the aim was to get down to 400 feet for ops (higher for training). The US had done some comprehensive trials and I remember reading a report which tabulated the various drop heights and the percentage of likely casualties.
The problem with paratroopers is that they are effectively helpless whilst in the air. So the holy grail is to lessen this time. Of course it has to be balanced against the injuries caused to the paras by the adoption of a very low drop height. You could in theory get down to 200 feet with the current parachutes if you accept the associated risks. As I have been out some time I do not know what the current thinking is given that we do not have all that many paratroopers in the British Army these days.
ancientaviator62 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.