Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
dragartist,
did a 22 ft steerable trial (singular) when I was at JATE in 1975. They collided so badly that we suspended the trial. Turned out our 'clearance' from Boscombe was nothing of the kind. Only ever did tailgating with the 22 ft after that.
did a 22 ft steerable trial (singular) when I was at JATE in 1975. They collided so badly that we suspended the trial. Turned out our 'clearance' from Boscombe was nothing of the kind. Only ever did tailgating with the 22 ft after that.
The above pics show a single row 1 ton AGE airdrop. You can see the extractor parachute attached to the bomb rack at the top of pic 1. The second pic shows how those neat and tidy para bags have been tangled into a rat's nest by the turbulent airflow around the rear of the a/c. This of course is with the ramp and door open, by as dragartist will no doubt confirm the air behind the a/c was always turbulent whatever the a/c configuration.
I could never feel any real difference in airflow when standing in the para door whether the air deflectors were open or shut. But closing the para door without them open was rather more difficult.
The ALM's used to get some stick from the menders for the state of the airframe in the vicinity of the para door locks. This was due to trying to close the door in flight in one smooth motion. One of the JENGOs made the mistake of offering to show us how it should be done ! It was very easy on the ground but I took him flying. He never did get it properly shut despite several attempts. Life aloft is never quite the same as life below.
Last edited by ancientaviator62; 31st Jul 2014 at 08:17. Reason: correction
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AA62
Ref your last photo. I noticed in some earlier posts that ALM's during drops originally were wearing either the Airlite headset with a boom mic or as in your last post G (cloth) helmets and O2 masks.
When did the practice of wearing "hard" helmets come in? Just a curious question as later pics show rear crew wearing Mk 10's. (I've also seen front crew wearing helmets on Red Flag/Afg missions when operating low level and for mounting NVG's which makes sense.)
What's the current SOP? I wouldn't relish the prospect of wearing a bonedome for 6 plus hours, even if the max G during a sortie was only 2.5!
MB
Ref your last photo. I noticed in some earlier posts that ALM's during drops originally were wearing either the Airlite headset with a boom mic or as in your last post G (cloth) helmets and O2 masks.
When did the practice of wearing "hard" helmets come in? Just a curious question as later pics show rear crew wearing Mk 10's. (I've also seen front crew wearing helmets on Red Flag/Afg missions when operating low level and for mounting NVG's which makes sense.)
What's the current SOP? I wouldn't relish the prospect of wearing a bonedome for 6 plus hours, even if the max G during a sortie was only 2.5!
MB
Madbob,
the chaps in the last pics are the army Air Despatchers, and their No. 1 is wearing a 'cloth hat' headset so that if we had an emergency he would be in the loop.
When I first started on Hastings we only had 'cloth hats ' but wore bone domes on top and parachutes for appropriate drops. If you look back at my two B/W pics from El Adem you can see the then current fashion. This carried over to the 'K' when it came into service, but for many drops we used the standard headset and boom mike. I have been retired for a long time now so do not know what the current SOP is.
Hope this helps.
the chaps in the last pics are the army Air Despatchers, and their No. 1 is wearing a 'cloth hat' headset so that if we had an emergency he would be in the loop.
When I first started on Hastings we only had 'cloth hats ' but wore bone domes on top and parachutes for appropriate drops. If you look back at my two B/W pics from El Adem you can see the then current fashion. This carried over to the 'K' when it came into service, but for many drops we used the standard headset and boom mike. I have been retired for a long time now so do not know what the current SOP is.
Hope this helps.
Aerodynamics
Drag
Does anybody know if there was any information available as to the effect on the Herc of flying with the ramp below the horizontal i.e., with the arms removed as if in the ground loading position. This I ask from a personal interest, depending on the answers I might just explain my interest. I would imagine an obvious nose down moment on the aircraft but was there ever anything in print or word of mouth about it.
If anybody wondered how much vacumn you could get acting on the vent system on the internal tanks, you should have seen what happened to the alloy collector tanks with the transfer pumps in when the pipes collapsed, not nice! A fairly serious redesign resulted from that one.
Does anybody know if there was any information available as to the effect on the Herc of flying with the ramp below the horizontal i.e., with the arms removed as if in the ground loading position. This I ask from a personal interest, depending on the answers I might just explain my interest. I would imagine an obvious nose down moment on the aircraft but was there ever anything in print or word of mouth about it.
If anybody wondered how much vacumn you could get acting on the vent system on the internal tanks, you should have seen what happened to the alloy collector tanks with the transfer pumps in when the pipes collapsed, not nice! A fairly serious redesign resulted from that one.
gopher01,
ref your post about flying with the ramp below the horizontal. It was talked about but I do not know if it was ever trialed in the UK. Rumour had it the US had done some trials but I do not know how true this was. The only reason I can think of for doing this was to slide something (or somebody !) down the ramp on a very low slow pass. Preferably into something soft like snow.
ref your post about flying with the ramp below the horizontal. It was talked about but I do not know if it was ever trialed in the UK. Rumour had it the US had done some trials but I do not know how true this was. The only reason I can think of for doing this was to slide something (or somebody !) down the ramp on a very low slow pass. Preferably into something soft like snow.
Now I have mentioned the 'snatch' I had better say something about it.
When the Falklands was recovered the airfield at Stanley was hors de combat. To get mail to the forces was straightforward enough by airdrop but how to get the replies out ? Hence the snatch was born.
It had been done in WW2 and lots of film etc existed. What did not exist (or could not be found) were any drawings of the hook etc. So a bit of trial and error resulted in a hook that would fly in a stable manner behind the a/c.
Initially the rewind was done by four Air Despatchers but a mod allowed the winch to be powered via the aux hyd system. All my pics are of the trials, I did not fly on the down south trips. A few more pics to follow.
esscee,
you would have no doubt enjoyed the JATE ULLA drops on the airfield when we were based at Abingdon. They were much closer to the ground !
you would have no doubt enjoyed the JATE ULLA drops on the airfield when we were based at Abingdon. They were much closer to the ground !
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Snatch
Just HAD to put in my tuppence worth.
The Snatch ground to air retrieval system was initially request to recover mail from the fleet in the South Atlantic.
The ideas ranged from a loop suspended between parts of the superstructure of H.M. Ships to a lifting kite. Kites were successfully flown by the Chinese laundry staff but they only lifted string. A lifting parachute then arrived which was to be flown off the stern. Trials at Larkhill showed that the aircraft had to fly at the para securing line at 45 degrees due to the curtinary of the droop. The first attempt required a rapid return to Brize for a taxy round while I emerged from the deck escape hatch to sever the line round the starboard wing between the engines. When flown off the stern of HMS Arethusa the para ditched suddenly after hitting turbulence and became a very efficient sea anchor. The fish heads rapidly lost enthusiasm for the idea
The Loop pick up was practised at Brize and the retrieval height was determined at 40 feet after numerous furrows were ploughed along the south side of the runway.
Now the live Snatch could be trialled at Larkhill. Trouble was when we got it what did we do with it. The AD boys started with the "Heave Ho" method but that took too long and when it reached the aircraft it sponned the duck bill so M**** McL**** cut it free. The AD guys nearly despatched HIM.
An expert brought us an aerial erection winch from the Boer war so finally the aircrew demanded and got a Fulton recovery winch.
As for the morale boosting mail for the U.K. plan, the Navy never used it and the guys at Stanley thought it was a joke and sent up a sheeps head in the bag. All in all not one of the better ideas.
The Snatch ground to air retrieval system was initially request to recover mail from the fleet in the South Atlantic.
The ideas ranged from a loop suspended between parts of the superstructure of H.M. Ships to a lifting kite. Kites were successfully flown by the Chinese laundry staff but they only lifted string. A lifting parachute then arrived which was to be flown off the stern. Trials at Larkhill showed that the aircraft had to fly at the para securing line at 45 degrees due to the curtinary of the droop. The first attempt required a rapid return to Brize for a taxy round while I emerged from the deck escape hatch to sever the line round the starboard wing between the engines. When flown off the stern of HMS Arethusa the para ditched suddenly after hitting turbulence and became a very efficient sea anchor. The fish heads rapidly lost enthusiasm for the idea
The Loop pick up was practised at Brize and the retrieval height was determined at 40 feet after numerous furrows were ploughed along the south side of the runway.
Now the live Snatch could be trialled at Larkhill. Trouble was when we got it what did we do with it. The AD boys started with the "Heave Ho" method but that took too long and when it reached the aircraft it sponned the duck bill so M**** McL**** cut it free. The AD guys nearly despatched HIM.
An expert brought us an aerial erection winch from the Boer war so finally the aircrew demanded and got a Fulton recovery winch.
As for the morale boosting mail for the U.K. plan, the Navy never used it and the guys at Stanley thought it was a joke and sent up a sheeps head in the bag. All in all not one of the better ideas.
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Gopher, my knowledge of AD is post 1994. Before that I was involved in the spooky stuff, probably with SD. My introduction to the Herc was fitting some kit to the Herc that went south in 82. I am guessing it was the one AA62 took to Belize and on to somewhere else for a paint job by the illiterate sign writer. ( The only knowledge I have of this is from Hutchings book).
Never aware of any attempt to lower the Herc ramp below the horizontal in the air. My contacts at BD who would know, like me have all retired. We did lower the Chinook ramp to drop parcels on 28ft Utilities. Evalu8er may know what effect this had on the stability and control when flying the aggressive evasive manoeuvre on the run in.
You will be aware, I am sure, of Wedge so we could keep the ramp up and open the top door to despatch stores with troops out of the sides. I guess with the airflow had the ramp been open the parachutist may have gone out the side and back in though the ramp.
I am not at all familiar with the tangled stores parachute bags in AA62 picture. Most of the stores chutes used a weak link on the anchor cable so the static line left the aircraft with the load after it had done its job.
It was a pain when 28fts were rigged with Apex weak links as the static lines never got reunited with the chute for re-packing. We changed this over time to standardise procedures. Some of the 28fts we were still using in 2011 were nearly as old as me!
Never aware of any attempt to lower the Herc ramp below the horizontal in the air. My contacts at BD who would know, like me have all retired. We did lower the Chinook ramp to drop parcels on 28ft Utilities. Evalu8er may know what effect this had on the stability and control when flying the aggressive evasive manoeuvre on the run in.
You will be aware, I am sure, of Wedge so we could keep the ramp up and open the top door to despatch stores with troops out of the sides. I guess with the airflow had the ramp been open the parachutist may have gone out the side and back in though the ramp.
I am not at all familiar with the tangled stores parachute bags in AA62 picture. Most of the stores chutes used a weak link on the anchor cable so the static line left the aircraft with the load after it had done its job.
It was a pain when 28fts were rigged with Apex weak links as the static lines never got reunited with the chute for re-packing. We changed this over time to standardise procedures. Some of the 28fts we were still using in 2011 were nearly as old as me!
dragartist,
I should have made it plain that my pic of the tangled para bags was taken in FEAF and we were using the old system whereby the bags were retained and had to be retrieved and untangled. Obviously this was before your time on AD. By then the new system did not leave the bags to be untangled and they went down with the load.! I used the pic to illustrate how turbulent the rear end airflow was.
I should have made it plain that my pic of the tangled para bags was taken in FEAF and we were using the old system whereby the bags were retained and had to be retrieved and untangled. Obviously this was before your time on AD. By then the new system did not leave the bags to be untangled and they went down with the load.! I used the pic to illustrate how turbulent the rear end airflow was.
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AA62, I remember some experiments with the French SLSHL where they put scoops on the bag in an effort to get it to fly without them all getting tangled. the last man out still got a face full of bag.
Did you use the parachutists Load lowering Line (rope) as a halliard to pull the bags in?
Just before I finished they were experimenting with some Kevlar reinforced cord specifically for the job.
Did you use the parachutists Load lowering Line (rope) as a halliard to pull the bags in?
Just before I finished they were experimenting with some Kevlar reinforced cord specifically for the job.
Apart from the complexities of dropping loads various, I would have thought that from an aerodynamic point of view (as Gopher asked) the lowering of the ramp below the arms attached position would have a similar effect to putting some serious nose down elevator on ? In fact, I always believed that the Loadie checked the arms were attached, as part of his pre flight checks, to prevent such an inadvertent selection of the ramp. As was their design function. Or was all that training I had irrelevant ? After all, the ramp is a significant piece of "control surface" to poke into the airflow.
Smudge
Smudge
smudge,
the checking of the ADS arms was indeed part of the ALM preflight checks. Also when loading any of the AD loads before airdrop the ADS arms were connected .
the checking of the ADS arms was indeed part of the ALM preflight checks. Also when loading any of the AD loads before airdrop the ADS arms were connected .
dragartist,
the bag retrieval system for the original AGE system for a full load used the para retrieval winch cables rigged on an anchor cable to wind in the bags.
On double row we had to carry an extra ALM whose sole task was to operate the starboard winch. Having seen the tangle from a few container's bags you can imagine what a full load was like. So it was imperative that they synchronised their rewind. Sometimes even this was not enough, the bags would refuse to move and we had several cases of the winch coming off the wall !
The original AGE was not much loved.
the bag retrieval system for the original AGE system for a full load used the para retrieval winch cables rigged on an anchor cable to wind in the bags.
On double row we had to carry an extra ALM whose sole task was to operate the starboard winch. Having seen the tangle from a few container's bags you can imagine what a full load was like. So it was imperative that they synchronised their rewind. Sometimes even this was not enough, the bags would refuse to move and we had several cases of the winch coming off the wall !
The original AGE was not much loved.
Dougie,
another illuminating post. As I said my contact with the snatch was on some of the JATE trials. Do you recall the Lyneham snatch demo ? A little lower and slower than usual approach almost achieved the angling catch of the year. The hook is reputed to have just missed the Jet garage that resided just outside of the Lyneham perimeter !
Another pic of the snatch which shows the rig a bit better than the previous pic.
another illuminating post. As I said my contact with the snatch was on some of the JATE trials. Do you recall the Lyneham snatch demo ? A little lower and slower than usual approach almost achieved the angling catch of the year. The hook is reputed to have just missed the Jet garage that resided just outside of the Lyneham perimeter !
Another pic of the snatch which shows the rig a bit better than the previous pic.
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Snatch Demo
The Lyneham Snatch demo did not include me I hasten to add. A certain Wg Cdr Ops took control of the demo and the grapnel hook snagged the load bag with only one tine. the run in was along the runway 07 axis and the unhappy bag worked itself loose almost immediately and now sits on the bottom of Tockenham reservoir.
Very impressive to watch however.
Very impressive to watch however.
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Sorry chaps but at the risk of sending the current trend off at a tangent I submit a couple of pics. I can't add anything to the current chat so it's just pics I'm afraid.
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The photo above was taken in Masirah and this long distant shot was taken at Clark AFB in the Philippines.
This crew were stunting and on take off, gear up, nose down, Christ what was that?
What that was happened to be contact will a noise abatement bank on the airfield perimeter taking out the nose wheel and one set of mains. The runway was foamed - those were the days - and they set up this approach. Usain Bolt would have nothing on the speed this crew feathered the props, jettisoned the crew door and ran like hell.
This crew were stunting and on take off, gear up, nose down, Christ what was that?
What that was happened to be contact will a noise abatement bank on the airfield perimeter taking out the nose wheel and one set of mains. The runway was foamed - those were the days - and they set up this approach. Usain Bolt would have nothing on the speed this crew feathered the props, jettisoned the crew door and ran like hell.