Ukraine calling for UN intervention

[rh200]

The trouble with brinkmanship is the risk that someone or something unexpected pushes one over the edge......

is there anyone left alive in Chechnya or did he kill them all, would be a shame if a few of the other states started using his new found largess on self determination to make a statement.

[Ronald Reagan]

Putin: Kiev, Western allies responsible for Ukraine bloodshed - YouTube

[Royalistflyer]

Local political elites and ordinary residents of the eastern regions of Ukraine (the overwhelming majority of whom are ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers) have by necessity always had to rely on informal institutions in their daily life, and never developed any real trust in the state.
The number of protesters and the ease with which they have taken and held on to regional government buildings shows both the weakness of the Ukrainian state and the precedent that the “Crimean model” has created. Political instability in Kiev and conflicting loyalties on the ground reveal that the Ukrainian formal institutions are largely run throughout the country by Donetsk region Russians. However in the east, which is the industrial heartland, the formal institutions long ago broke down. As it is now, the quickest road to peace is if Russia takes over the east - possibly in a short, sharp military incursion. Then lets the west of Ukraine re-order itself with its separate religious and cultural being. Never forget the strength of the religious divide between the east and the west of Ukraine.

A Russian peace is probably the best result the west could hope for now, otherwise there could be a years long civil war.

[ORAC]

......As it is now, the quickest road to peace is if Russia takes over the east - possibly in a short, sharp military incursion. Then lets the west of Ukraine re-order itself with its separate religious and cultural being....

HOW RELATIONS BETWEEN UKRAINE AND RUSSIA SHOULD LOOK LIKE? PUBLIC OPINION POLLS’ RESULTS

Public opinion poll was conducted by the Ilko Kucheriv Democratic Initiatives Foundation together with Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in the period between February, 8-18 2014. 2032 respondents were interviewed in all the districts of Ukraine (including Kyiv) and in Crimea according to the random sample, which was representative for all the population of Ukraine older than 18 years. Statistical error doesn’t exceed 2,2% (without design -effect).

Question included by the Ilko Kucheriv Democratic Initiatives Foundation were financed in the framework of the project “Public sociological consortium” by the European union, MATRA programme of the Kingdom of Netherlands, International Renaissance Foundation, and also in the framework of the project “Stimulating dialog on transition processes” by the National Endowment for Democracy (USA).

Data from public opinion poll, conducted by Russian research organization Levada Centre is provided for comparison. Levada Centre conducted representative for Russia public opinion poll on February, 21-25 2014 and interviewed 1603 respondents older than 18 years in 130 settlements in 45 districts of the country. Statistical error doesn’t exceed 3,4%.

Ukrainians don’t want visas and borders with Russia, but at the same time don’t want to be united with Russia in a single state

• In Ukraine, as well as in Russia majority of respondents wants both countries to be independent, but friendly - with open borders, without visas and customs houses (in Ukraine – 68%, in Russia – 59%). In Ukraine with numbers have decreased since November, 2013 by 5%, in Russia – increased by 4%.
• Integration with Russia into a single state is supported by 12% of respondents in Ukraine, and during recent years this number has decreased from 20% to 9%, but after Maidan – increased by 3%. The main part of supporters of this idea of unification with Russia is in the East (26%) and South (19%), while the smallest part is in the Center (5%) and West (1%) of Ukraine. By regions majority of integration with Russia in one state is in Crimea (41%), Donetsk district (33%), Lugansk district (24%), Odessa district (24%), Zaporizhzhya (17%) and Kharkiv (15%) districts, but even there support to the current status of relations with Russia - as two independent and friendly states – prevails.
• Among Russians desire to have Ukraine and Russia as two independent and friendly states (with open borders, without visas and customs houses) prevails as well as among Ukrainians (68% and 63% respectively). Integration into one state is supported by 9% of Ukrainians and 32% of Russians. There is direct dependence between desire to unite with Russia into a single state and age of respondents: among youth up to 30 years old 5% want this unification to be realized, among people of 30-54 years old – 11% support that, and among people older than 55 years – 17%.
• It is obvious, that among supporters of joining the Custom Union, there is more people supporting unification with Russia (26,5%), than among those, oriented on joining the EU (1%). However, even among supporters of entering the Custom Union majority wants to preserve the status-quo in relations with Russia (69%). Among people, having negative attitude towards Maidan, only 21% wants to unite with Russia into a single state.
• Among supporters of political parties the highest percentage of people, who wants join Ukraine to join Russia, is among communists’ electorate (35,5%), but even in this case majority consider that Ukraine and Russia should be friendly independent states (63%). Among Party of Regions voters 28% support unification with Russia.
• In Russia 16% of population support unification with Ukraine into one state.

Never forget the strength of the religious divide between the east and the west of Ukraine.

what divide?

Religion in Ukraine

[NutLoose]

Odd. Nothing out of Putin, do you think he put people in to destabilise it hoping for a quick settlement and a land grab with the threat of intervention if Ukraine intervened ? But now the Ukraine has found it's voice and intervened he has been caught out as he knows that if he did invade it would cost both sides and he has more to lose, I've seen loads of chart with Ukraine having 100, 000 troops, Russia 750, 000, but in reality he has 40,000 on the border and the Ukraine 100,000 in the country. I should imagine if he started a war that dragged on and he committed more forces from other regions in Russia, it might have a profound effect there.

[Ronald Reagan]

The sights one is seeing in parts of Ukraine are terrible at the moment.
Putin has simply got to help those poor people. They are depending on him to help protect them from Nazi's and terrorists. To think before those morons rose up against Yanokovich things were just fine. He never went to the extreme of using the army to put down the protests in Kiev yet the unelected junta who took over the country via a coup are now all to happy to use the military to put down anyone else who dares to rise up even though they ousted the previous legitimate leader and took power by force themselves. They are total hypocrites. Hearing the rubbish coming from the mouths of the fools like Hague and Obama is just unreal. I wonder if any western governments have any credibility left at all.

[ORAC]

Ronald, do you realise how ridiculous you sound?

[SARF]

Putin is waiting.... Timing s everything on the battlefield .. And that's now what it's becoming.. The commies have no reason to rush.. The west are to scared to flex what muscle they have left.. The uk should stand aside.. This is the first time for 800 years when we should sell our services rather than commit them.. Same applies when it kicks off n the far east.. For the first time since the atlas was drawn we can sit back watch and sell arms... Lovely....

[rh200]

Putin: Kiev, Western allies responsible for Ukraine bloodshed - YouTube

Whats your point? Of course he's going to say that, he is the one causing the trouble.

(the overwhelming majority of whom are ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers

Not true, demographics have proven that, Russian speaking bit though is.

but in reality he has 40,000 on the border and the Ukraine 100,000 in the country. I should imagine if he started a war that dragged on and he committed more forces from other regions in Russia, it might have a profound effect there.

It really depends on how much nationalisim you can drum up, and if you can put up a fight. The Russians have a history of rape, genocide and what ever other means at their disposal whilst controlling the media. Ones desire to protect ones family can be a good motivator.

The sights one is seeing in parts of Ukraine are terrible at the moment.

Yes they are Ronald, you see some poor Ukrainians come out in peaceful protest and they are jumped on by thugs with iron bars and baseball bats waving Russian flags.

Putin has simply got to help those poor people. They are depending on him to help protect them from Nazi's and terrorists.

The Nazi's and terrorists are the imported and local thugs acting as cannon fodder, whilts be controlled by what should be proffesionel Russian soldiers who are out of uniform.

The Odessa incident is a result of Some Ukrainian footy fans having a peaceful march, and then being set upon by a group of Russian thugs. I'm mean attack a group of footy fans, like you don't think they where going to respond? Though I think thats what the Russian ring leaders wanted, the plan worked nicely.

[Ronald Reagan]

I disagree with you 100% totally ORAC. I am sorry but this Ukraine thing and the western interference there which is really what ousted Yanokovich has really angered me as much as our intervention in Libya. I should really put the blame at the door of Washington though, our leaders in all the western world are simply puppets and take their orders from Washington. Just like when they demanded that European nations stop the Bolivian President's plane from flying through European airspace in case Snowden was on board. I am just so sick and fed up of western arrogance, our leaders strutting around the place, lecturing other nations on what they will and will not do. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Putin needs to step up and do what needs to be done. All I can say is thank god for nations like Russia, China, India, Brazil, Ecuador, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba, Iran, Syria and even place likes the DPRK. We need some kind of balance in this world like back during the cold war, something to bring Washington under control and thus our own puppet governments. The only good thing is more and more of our people can see through their lies now hence no military action against Syria and the rise of parties like UKIP. This naked western aggression must end now.

[Ronald Reagan]

Your very wrong rh200. Russia is the good guy in this and the western governments are in the wrong. Much like with most things recently on the international stage.
Putin has simply got to help those poor people.

[West Coast]

When in doubt, roll the US President out.

So RR, at what point will it be clear to you that Putin is the aggressor? When western Ukraine is under the jack boot of a Russian tank commander?

[rh200]

When in doubt, roll the US President out.

In this case rolling him out actually gives hitler, oh I mean Putin the green light.

Your very wrong rh200. Russia is the good guy in this and the western governments are in the wrong.

Which bit? The independent reporters are having a hard time, but are still managing to get the story out.

So RR, at what point will it be clear to you that Putin is the aggressor?

Most likely never, RR is most likely a troll, or a pr guy in Russia, or some naive Russian teenager.

[West Coast]

Or an employee of RT news

[rh200]

or a pr guy in Russia

Or an employee of RT news

Opps, my apologies, I was under the impression they where the PR media side of the Kremlin

[henra]

Originally Posted by rh200

It really depends on how much nationalisim you can drum up, and if you can put up a fight. The Russians have a history of rape, genocide and what ever other means at their disposal whilst controlling the media.

Honest question: What is your personal involvement in this tragedy?
Are you per Chance Exile Ukrainian?
Your deep personal hatred against Russians is most obvious. You are having your personal Jihad here. For whatever reason.

While it is clear that Putin and his aides are definitely no innocents in this whole story, your posts do seem that you are completely blinded by this hatred against everything Russian.
I don't think it is fair to judge a whole Nation by the actions of a president fighting for power internally.
I know that i don't want to be judged personally by the Actions of our Government and so I try to differentiate a bit also for others/other Nations.

Edit: And while it is pretty safe to assume that Putin and his colleagues were involved in igniting this, I'm not totally sure how much control he still has now over what's going on.

[t43562]

It is possible to like Tschaikovsky (gay!!!), use Russian software and enjoy eating blinis without approving of what their government does. One does not have to feel any hatred at all to see in little in history that encourages trust or faith in such a government.

[rh200]

Honest question: What is your personal involvement in this tragedy?

Are you per Chance Exile Ukrainian?

Nope, don't even know my history, presume I'm decendent from poms some time in the past.

Your deep personal hatred against Russians is most obvious. You are having your personal Jihad here. For whatever reason.

I have a profound dislike of bullys. Whilst situations are not always cut and dried, we as a people are trying to move on, sort of three step forward, two backwards sort of thing.

This whole dislike of western this and that type of sh!t is cr@p. A lot of those countrys are having a hard enough time trying to find their way forward as it is. There is no magic bullet as we try to move forward, but this blatant them and us cr@p being relied on by the Kremlin is not it.

While it is clear that Putin and his aides are definitely no innocents in this whole story, your posts do seem that you are completely blinded by this hatred against everything Russian.
I don't think it is fair to judge a whole Nation by the actions of a president fighting for power internally.

It the Russians mo, they have history of it, where would you like to start.

I know that i don't want to be judged personally by the Actions of our Government and so I try to differentiate a bit also for others/other Nations.

Your correct, individuals shouldn't, but a people can be.

Edit: And while it is pretty safe to assume that Putin and his colleagues were involved in igniting this, I'm not totally sure how much control he still has now over what's going on.

You maybe right, it is most likely starting to get a life of its own. If thats so, then Russia needs to pay and pay dearly for a long time. Though we all know the west doesn't have the b@lls for that sort of sanctions.

[Ronald Reagan]

rh200, NO Russia does not need to pay. The regime in Kiev needs to pay and be made to pay for a very long time! All of this started due to the actions of those who took power by force. Until that happened no one rose up in the east, Russia did not need to go in and get involved. I never liked Tony Blair or Gordon Brown but I did not seek to remove them from power by force or through protests, we simply waited for the next election and finally that party was voted out of office. All they had to do with Yanokovich was wait one year, just one tiny little year and then they would have been free to vote him out. Rising up and overthrowing your leadership can have unforeseen consequences which the junta in Kiev are now beginning to understand. They set a precedent, if one group of people can simply rise up and demand whatever they want, then so can any other group of people.


Oh and if you hate bullies rh200 where is your criticism of the regime in Washington over things like Iraq, Libya, Vietnam along with all the political and economic bullying they engage in against so many other nations. The regime in Washington is the true bully in this world, made to feel more secure by its considerable network of allied puppet states.

[peter we]

Ronald.

You been reading RT.com haven't you?

Here a tip: Its all lies.