War with Russia next?
Not getting the pink teddy bear ref: breast cancer thing? 
What is that old adage? Ah, yes thus spake Roosevelt - "There is a homely old adage which runs: Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." One gets the impression that President Obama has only mastered the first bit...
I'm up for a wager as to what the outcome will be Trim Stab, if you are ;-)
Let Crimea rejoin Russia - that is where they belong!
Some confusion Trim Stab. I also think it will be a yes vote as the result has already been decided by Putin and his cronies. Predict a 90% turnout and 99% in favour. It will be rigged of course.
Some confusion Trim Stab. I also think it will be a yes vote as the result has already been decided by Putin and his cronies. Predict a 90% turnout and 99% in favour. It will be rigged of course.
And why do you assume that it will be rigged? The elected Crimean parliament proposed the referendum - nobody claimed before that the Crimean parliamentary elections were "rigged".
I say let the referendum take its course, with the usual international observers to ensure that it is fair - and then let the arguments start.
Trim, you might want to consider the demographic breakdown. I'll estimate that those born after 1989-1994 are as likely to identify as "Ukrainian" as Russian, and thus split the pro "head back to Mother Russia" vote a bit.
Could be a near run thing, if it isn't a rigged election. I know a few guys in Duval and Jim Wells County who can advise on that (rigged) style of election.
Could be a near run thing, if it isn't a rigged election. I know a few guys in Duval and Jim Wells County who can advise on that (rigged) style of election.
Lonewolf - agree that there are a lot of dynamics in play here. Glibly denouncing "Russian aggression" maybe plays to strategic power-politics - but it might not be the best way forward here.
Ukrainian politics have been dominated for at least the past decade or so by an East-West split - between the younger and more urbanised demography in Kiev and surrounding areas, and the orthodox-traditional and more heavy-industrialised areas to East.
The best way forward here is to put geo-politics aside and let the Ukrainian people choose. Until now, we are giving undue prominence to an unelected Kiev-based official who is claiming to represent the whole of Ukraine, and refusing to recognise the legitimacy of a proposal by a fairly elected regional parliament in Ukraine to have a referendum on Crimean independence.
Ukrainian politics have been dominated for at least the past decade or so by an East-West split - between the younger and more urbanised demography in Kiev and surrounding areas, and the orthodox-traditional and more heavy-industrialised areas to East.
The best way forward here is to put geo-politics aside and let the Ukrainian people choose. Until now, we are giving undue prominence to an unelected Kiev-based official who is claiming to represent the whole of Ukraine, and refusing to recognise the legitimacy of a proposal by a fairly elected regional parliament in Ukraine to have a referendum on Crimean independence.
I wonder how many people in Ukraine, east west north south, hold that the removal from office of the pres was valid and constitutional? I seem to recall that new elections are expected to be held in May.
(Or was that bad press reporting?)
(Or was that bad press reporting?)
The way forward now is to declare the Ukrainian constitution invalid and work out a new constitution. Ukraine was never a truly unified, homogenous nation anyway. Better to accept Russia's valid concerns to protect the interest of their own kind in the Crimea (plenty of US/UK/French/German precedent for that!), consider them a negotiating partner, and negotiate partition of Ukraine.
The argument that the partition of Ukraine is non-negotiable is artificial because it has never been a truly unified state.
The argument that the partition of Ukraine is non-negotiable is artificial because it has never been a truly unified state.
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Very interesting discussion.
Just chiming in to tip you that here in Sweden we do perfectly fine nuclear power in excess amounts, so please EU, come buy it! It probably can't get your cars going, but at least you can keep your AC running if you decide to cut off the Russian gas/oil.
(Yes, I am pro-nuclear power. And don't worry, we only have simple light water reactors.)
Just chiming in to tip you that here in Sweden we do perfectly fine nuclear power in excess amounts, so please EU, come buy it! It probably can't get your cars going, but at least you can keep your AC running if you decide to cut off the Russian gas/oil.
(Yes, I am pro-nuclear power. And don't worry, we only have simple light water reactors.)
Respectfully disagree, good sir, on the following. It harkens back to the "No True Scotsman" argument, uh, fallacy, uh, thing.
Who is to make this declaration and why?
Nor was the United States in its first twenty years. We bickered like two wildcats in a bag together, see for example the Whiskey Rebellion. Some of New England nearly went over to the Brits in the War of 1812! (We got better ... sort of)
I'd say you are being a bit hasty with that partition bit.
I see. they had better take a look at their porridge and check for sugar! 
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "I am Scottish, and I put sugar on my porridge."
Person A: "Well, no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
The way forward now is to declare the Ukrainian constitution invalid and work out a new constitution.
Ukraine was never a truly unified, homogenous nation anyway.
Better to accept Russia's valid concerns to protect the interest of their own kind in the Crimea (plenty of US/UK/French/German precedent for that!), consider them a negotiating partner, and negotiate partition of Ukraine.
The argument that the partition of Ukraine is non-negotiable is artificial because it has never been a truly unified state.
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "I am Scottish, and I put sugar on my porridge."
Person A: "Well, no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
The bellicose jousting positions which we see at the moment don't reflect the reality of what is probably going on around the non-public negotiating table at the moment. All four sides (Ukraine, Russia, EU, USA ... in that order) have too much to lose here. The final settlement will probably (and I hope!) be a peaceful partition of Ukraine. It is the only sensible long-term solution. Any other "international law" fudge will lead to a long-term source of discontent which will only boil over again for future generations to deal with.
Trim Stab +1
and your earlier post on the farcical idea that all Ukranians should vote on any region's independence. Might be worth reminding Obama that the phrase "tyranny of the majority"was first used by one of his predecessors (John Adams).
and your earlier post on the farcical idea that all Ukranians should vote on any region's independence. Might be worth reminding Obama that the phrase "tyranny of the majority"was first used by one of his predecessors (John Adams).
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I see. they had better take a look at their porridge and check for sugar!
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "I am Scottish, and I put sugar on my porridge."
Person A: "Well, no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "I am Scottish, and I put sugar on my porridge."
Person A: "Well, no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
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Just chiming in to tip you that here in Sweden we do perfectly fine nuclear power in excess amounts, so please EU, come buy it! It probably can't get your cars going, but at least you can keep your AC running if you decide to cut off the Russian gas/oil.
The home of electric blue
.Remember seeing a documentry one day about renewable energy and one of the countrys next door. It then cut to one of the operators of your nuclear power stations, who just sat back and laughed and said, "where do you think they get their power from when the wind doesn't blow"
.Bet after this there might be doing a few more sums on their power plant requirements.
F3WMB?
The 'farcical idea' that all Ukrainians should vote on any secession happens to be part of the Ukrainians constitution (approved by Moscow). While it may appear daft now, that's what the Russians insisted on - but I doubt that legal niceties appeal to Putin.
The 'farcical idea' that all Ukrainians should vote on any secession happens to be part of the Ukrainians constitution (approved by Moscow). While it may appear daft now, that's what the Russians insisted on - but I doubt that legal niceties appeal to Putin.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Might be worth reminding Obama that the phrase "tyranny of the majority"was first used by one of his predecessors (John Adams).
