An insult to all
Last month we delivered a few Poppies to our friends in the USA. They understood what it is about. Indeed, the US has picked up on the scheme
I was under the impression that it symbolises life returning, as the poppies still grow in Flanders...But...if folks want to misinterpret the symbology...it is their right
"Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high."
While I personally don't believe that if you reference part of something you necessarily have to pay attention to all of it, their point is not completely without merit.
There is definitely an expectation that people will wear their poppies. I, therefore respect Jon Snow to choose to fight against that and not to wear one. However, as it has been said, I would want to talk with the reverend and try to convince her into what the poppy symbolises. If she still chooses not to wear a poppy, well that's her choice, but I would then find it incongruous with her conducting a Remembrance Service as the two are, in my mind, intrisically linked.
Last edited by MG; 29th Oct 2013 at 16:18.
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I always thought the poppy advocates the remembrance of the military dead from the 14-18 war, and is a symbol of acknowledgement that the people who died are remembered. I always candidly read it/interpreted it from many people that it was (don't be offended please) also an acknowledgement of the waste of that war - the waste of life - in the Great War. Worn as a silent plea for no more war, please?
A heart-breaking thing I once saw, an elderly or middle aged lady wearing a poppy with a black and white small photo attached to it on her coat of a young British serviceman from WW2 (looking at the photo in my minds eye). This was in 1979. I was a kid and have often wondered who he was, who she was? What could the vicar say to that, about that?
Later on of course we have had more and more war and conflict involving our country.
Some of it highly controversially, and politically questionable. And generally hated. Possibly increasingly deemed unnecessary.
My present reading of it is a great many in our nation are of the opinion " well you volunteered mate, and its your hard luck/problem you and them got injured and or killed - sympathy zilch and hostility to your fighting effort-quite high actually because I hate the political aspect of that conflict and your part in it-and I don't want to know about it any further". Its true, many people feel and think that.
Agree with Snow up to a point - think he's a good bloke, read his book understand his stance, if I don't entirely agree with him on this. He does wear a poppy, on the 11th if it coincides with a workday for him on the TV.
Perhaps people are wearing poppies far, far too early IMHO, but that tallies in with the RBL campaign for money for the very worthy - that's a business campaign they run as well and a slick one, for hard cash. They need to place the poppy like an advert to generate a return-everyone understands this.
But seeing all manner of TV celebs wearing the poppy, no made to wear the poppy by young staffers who pin them on for them 20 seconds before green light - I find this......difficult.
Far too long a post and its making me melancholy again as this always does.
RIP all our fallen.
A heart-breaking thing I once saw, an elderly or middle aged lady wearing a poppy with a black and white small photo attached to it on her coat of a young British serviceman from WW2 (looking at the photo in my minds eye). This was in 1979. I was a kid and have often wondered who he was, who she was? What could the vicar say to that, about that?
Later on of course we have had more and more war and conflict involving our country.
Some of it highly controversially, and politically questionable. And generally hated. Possibly increasingly deemed unnecessary.
My present reading of it is a great many in our nation are of the opinion " well you volunteered mate, and its your hard luck/problem you and them got injured and or killed - sympathy zilch and hostility to your fighting effort-quite high actually because I hate the political aspect of that conflict and your part in it-and I don't want to know about it any further". Its true, many people feel and think that.
Agree with Snow up to a point - think he's a good bloke, read his book understand his stance, if I don't entirely agree with him on this. He does wear a poppy, on the 11th if it coincides with a workday for him on the TV.
Perhaps people are wearing poppies far, far too early IMHO, but that tallies in with the RBL campaign for money for the very worthy - that's a business campaign they run as well and a slick one, for hard cash. They need to place the poppy like an advert to generate a return-everyone understands this.
But seeing all manner of TV celebs wearing the poppy, no made to wear the poppy by young staffers who pin them on for them 20 seconds before green light - I find this......difficult.
Far too long a post and its making me melancholy again as this always does.
RIP all our fallen.
Last edited by Hangarshuffle; 29th Oct 2013 at 16:23.
100% behind John Snow in this matter, even though I disagree with many of his political opinions. "Poppy fascism" is about right.
In recent years there has been an unseemly rush to be the first to wear a poppy. I certainly havent bought one yet, but no doubt I'll have one in time for 10th November when I'll be attending a remembrance service.
The vicar of course has got it all wrong, and needs to be educated about the fact that the poppy is for remembrance, not the glorification of war. In any case, in my experience there's no pacifist like one who's fought in a war and seen first hand what a bloody waste it all is.
IMOH white poppies are insulting, and their wearers seek to occupy a spurious moral high ground, implying as they do that those of us who wear red poppies are somehow in favour of wars!
In recent years there has been an unseemly rush to be the first to wear a poppy. I certainly havent bought one yet, but no doubt I'll have one in time for 10th November when I'll be attending a remembrance service.
The vicar of course has got it all wrong, and needs to be educated about the fact that the poppy is for remembrance, not the glorification of war. In any case, in my experience there's no pacifist like one who's fought in a war and seen first hand what a bloody waste it all is.
IMOH white poppies are insulting, and their wearers seek to occupy a spurious moral high ground, implying as they do that those of us who wear red poppies are somehow in favour of wars!
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 29th Oct 2013 at 16:36.
I have never understood this fetish for wearing poppies for as long before the 11th as Christmas trees appear in the shops before the 25th Dec.
Mine is worn from the Monday before the 11th (and kept until Remembrance Sunday if later), and the medals (and squadron tie) get their annual airing on Remembrance Sunday too. Not for show, but out of respect for those we will remember.
Mine is worn from the Monday before the 11th (and kept until Remembrance Sunday if later), and the medals (and squadron tie) get their annual airing on Remembrance Sunday too. Not for show, but out of respect for those we will remember.
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I've been wearing one here since Sunday, when our local Field of Remembrance was opened and blessed by The Dean, and the first cross was planted by the Lt Governor. I guess Jersey is bit focussed, being both insular (in every sense) and having been occupied. And I'm a bit the same, as the OH and I served 55 years between us without any harm ... and watched it happening to others. Which is one reason we're on the Poppy Team here.
But ... it's Remembrance. That's what it is. Remembering the fallen, whether its the 55,000 of Bomber Command or the squillions everywhere else.
AND, for the RBL, it's about seizing the moment to generate funds to care for those in need. Not just WW1 or WW2, but Korea and all the other sh*t people have gone through, or just "Joe" who served and is now in need of some help. He might have done a couple of years' National Service ... that doesn't make him lesser, he's still 'one of us'.
So I will happily gob away about RBL, or Holidays4Heroes, or any military-based charity you care to name. Because those of us undamaged by our service should, in my non-humble vocal opinion (
), do a bit extra for those who didn't end up quite as lucky. And I'll wear my Poppy, Poppy Pins, sweatshirt and fleece constantly for the next couple of weeks ... to help remind people to donate.
Then we all take a deep breath, launder them and stow them for next year. (Unless you're on the local RBL Committee, or similar, because the work of meeting the need is a 365 operation).
[/rant]
But ... it's Remembrance. That's what it is. Remembering the fallen, whether its the 55,000 of Bomber Command or the squillions everywhere else.
AND, for the RBL, it's about seizing the moment to generate funds to care for those in need. Not just WW1 or WW2, but Korea and all the other sh*t people have gone through, or just "Joe" who served and is now in need of some help. He might have done a couple of years' National Service ... that doesn't make him lesser, he's still 'one of us'.
So I will happily gob away about RBL, or Holidays4Heroes, or any military-based charity you care to name. Because those of us undamaged by our service should, in my non-humble vocal opinion (
), do a bit extra for those who didn't end up quite as lucky. And I'll wear my Poppy, Poppy Pins, sweatshirt and fleece constantly for the next couple of weeks ... to help remind people to donate. Then we all take a deep breath, launder them and stow them for next year. (Unless you're on the local RBL Committee, or similar, because the work of meeting the need is a 365 operation).
[/rant]
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I respect her right to chose not to wear one, she has that right thanks to those that gave all to ensure it for her. Though I do question her motive in making a big issue of it.
I do wonder how she will resolve her conflict over the issue if she is involved in any Remembrance Services.
I have noticed of late this propensity to cast aspersions on people seen not to be wearing them in public, end of the day, it's their personal choice, I'm as guilty as the rest of noticing that too, the ex News of the World editor wasn't wearing one for her court hearing, the others were.
Myself I rarely wear one due to FOD issues, though I do purchase one.
I do wonder how she will resolve her conflict over the issue if she is involved in any Remembrance Services.
I have noticed of late this propensity to cast aspersions on people seen not to be wearing them in public, end of the day, it's their personal choice, I'm as guilty as the rest of noticing that too, the ex News of the World editor wasn't wearing one for her court hearing, the others were.
Myself I rarely wear one due to FOD issues, though I do purchase one.
Last edited by NutLoose; 29th Oct 2013 at 18:06.
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Oh God, am I sick to the pit of my stomach of these politically correct morons.
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Not a day goes by, we'll that's not quite right. Reality is more than a day and less than a week that I don't give thanks for living where and when I do, and for all those whose sacrifices mean I can do so.
I can, and do criticise the gub'mint of the day, practice my faith without fear or persecution. I have a roof over my family's heads and enough money for food, iPads and all the luxuries I wanted.
Sure I work hard and I am fortunate enough to have a job, but I still remember.
Yes I might be some ex REMF who never got near a front line but hopefully the engines I fixed bought someone back safe and sound, job done.
What someone chooses to wear or not on their clothes on one day,or a few makes no damn difference to me.
I remember, damn right I do, my son will grow up knowing that on some days daddy is not ashamed to be in floods of tears in church, and that after the last post, when the service is all done, daddy is stepping outside to hoist a large malt, thankful that he can do so.
Here's to you, men and women in uniform, past and present. Your sacrifice will not be forgotten, not on my watch. I've spent enough time around you all to know that now is the time to retire to the bar, mine's a Glenfiddich.
I can, and do criticise the gub'mint of the day, practice my faith without fear or persecution. I have a roof over my family's heads and enough money for food, iPads and all the luxuries I wanted.
Sure I work hard and I am fortunate enough to have a job, but I still remember.
Yes I might be some ex REMF who never got near a front line but hopefully the engines I fixed bought someone back safe and sound, job done.
What someone chooses to wear or not on their clothes on one day,or a few makes no damn difference to me.
I remember, damn right I do, my son will grow up knowing that on some days daddy is not ashamed to be in floods of tears in church, and that after the last post, when the service is all done, daddy is stepping outside to hoist a large malt, thankful that he can do so.
Here's to you, men and women in uniform, past and present. Your sacrifice will not be forgotten, not on my watch. I've spent enough time around you all to know that now is the time to retire to the bar, mine's a Glenfiddich.
If a spam vicar chooses not to wear a poppy I think not a lot of her. However, if she chooses not to donate money to the British Legion poppy appeal then I'll think even less of her.
The poppy is a symbol, but it is the donations that enable the British Legion to continue to perform the vital work in caring for members of our military family in need!
The poppy is a symbol, but it is the donations that enable the British Legion to continue to perform the vital work in caring for members of our military family in need!
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Blood relatives died and fought in the Great War and the one that followed known as the Second World War.
I've worn Poppies since being in short trousers and quietly remembered the obscene loss of life on all sides.
I don't wear anything to do with the Boer War, the Hundred Years War or the English Civil War despite my ancestral home being in Yorkshire. No, not even a White Rose of Peace.
The reason is relevance. That symbols relate to specific moments in history means that I think we need a new emblem for subsequent campaigns. (You can't have a Burma Star if you weren't there)
I support Help for Heroes and the British Legion and Bomber Command Association but I've not worn a poppy for some time.
It's not through disrespect for the dead of later campaigns it's for the perceived dilution of the original intent.
10,000 soldiers died the same day my ancestor did. Sad.
SGC
I've worn Poppies since being in short trousers and quietly remembered the obscene loss of life on all sides.
I don't wear anything to do with the Boer War, the Hundred Years War or the English Civil War despite my ancestral home being in Yorkshire. No, not even a White Rose of Peace.
The reason is relevance. That symbols relate to specific moments in history means that I think we need a new emblem for subsequent campaigns. (You can't have a Burma Star if you weren't there)
I support Help for Heroes and the British Legion and Bomber Command Association but I've not worn a poppy for some time.
It's not through disrespect for the dead of later campaigns it's for the perceived dilution of the original intent.
10,000 soldiers died the same day my ancestor did. Sad.
SGC
This raises a very topical issue. Please, someone tell me the answer to this. As an Air Force brat and then serving member for 30 years, I find I can only address vicars as "Padre". Now, I've just lost my Mum and Dad-in-law and have found myself addressing a female vicar. Can I say "Padre" or what should I say?
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 29th Oct 2013 at 21:37.
I must be getting soft; for the second time in a week or two I agree with most.
Re Vicaress PJ - I'm sure she means well but doesn't really understand what we, in Europe, think of the events of the first half of the twentieth century.
Re Vicaress PJ - I'm sure she means well but doesn't really understand what we, in Europe, think of the events of the first half of the twentieth century.
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So the Revd. P.Jackson stands on her "democratic right" not to wear a poppy. There are rights and rights: your fist's rights end where my nose's begin. There is much talk about "freedom of expression. " Milton had it about right: "Licence they mean when they cry 'Liberty'". So, "War is somehing she does not believe in"... Join the Club !...Who does ?... (Close your eyes tight, it might go away).
But, unfortunately, it seems to be in the human psyche to have wars from time to time. And when they do, someone has to fight them. It would be nice if it were not so, (I'm sure the 55,000 dead men of Bomber Command - and all the other war dead - would agree), but it is so.
And in the aftermath, it is surely right that the rest of us (and not only the survivors) should treasure their memory and honour their sacrifice. "Blackadder goes forth" (I think that was the title) touched the right nerve with that famous fade-out.
I wear my old poppy with pride. (I say 'old' advisedly, I keep the old one year on year. Not that I'm more of a cheapskate than the next man, but I do not see why aged veterans (or Army Cadets for that matter) should stand out in the cold with their trays to collect money from the public which any decent Goverment would provide from taxation).
Of course the Revd. Jackson can wear her white poppy if she wants - it's her "Human Right". It's a free country, isn't it ? (and how did that happen ?) She can wear a swastika in the pulpit, if she likes (and see how far she gets with that "Right"). Or burn or Koran or two (and it has been done) - but I would not advise it under any circumstances.
D.
But, unfortunately, it seems to be in the human psyche to have wars from time to time. And when they do, someone has to fight them. It would be nice if it were not so, (I'm sure the 55,000 dead men of Bomber Command - and all the other war dead - would agree), but it is so.
And in the aftermath, it is surely right that the rest of us (and not only the survivors) should treasure their memory and honour their sacrifice. "Blackadder goes forth" (I think that was the title) touched the right nerve with that famous fade-out.
I wear my old poppy with pride. (I say 'old' advisedly, I keep the old one year on year. Not that I'm more of a cheapskate than the next man, but I do not see why aged veterans (or Army Cadets for that matter) should stand out in the cold with their trays to collect money from the public which any decent Goverment would provide from taxation).
Of course the Revd. Jackson can wear her white poppy if she wants - it's her "Human Right". It's a free country, isn't it ? (and how did that happen ?) She can wear a swastika in the pulpit, if she likes (and see how far she gets with that "Right"). Or burn or Koran or two (and it has been done) - but I would not advise it under any circumstances.
D.
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This raises a very topical issue. Please, someone tell me the answer to this. As an Air Force brat and then serving member for 30 years, I find I can only address vicars as "Padre". Now, I've just lost my Mum and Dad-in-law and have found myself addressing a female vicar. Can I say "Padre" or what should I say?
Tom