Our Boys Behaving Badly

[500N]

Those who serve in the UK.

If these guys get convicted and punished in the US, even if let off and told
to leave the country, I assume the British Army will then charge them
with various offences ?

[Broadsword***]

If these guys get convicted and punished in the US, even if let off and told to leave the country, I assume the British Army will then charge them
with various offences ?

If by 'charge' you mean prosecute them, then no. They may, however, face administrative action, which is entirely separate from the military criminal justice system. Administrative action may result in a range of outcomes from an informal interview or rebuke to, in the most serious cases, termination of service.

A change in the terms of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 means the Army can no longer take administrative action against soldiers who receive police cautions. If, therefore, the soldiers were to receive in the US something akin to a UK police caution (very unlikely, given the seriousness of the alleged offences), administrative action may not be an option.

[OutlawPete]

SASless, you make it sound like they committed mass murder. They slapped an alleged racist who had already stabbed two of them, hardly what I'd call crime of the century. If these guys had really beaten him up that bad, he'd have more than a bloody nose and split lip.

Beagle that article in the NYT does indeed seem like a well written account.

[perthsaint]

Still no evidence from SASless? Strange.

[SASless]

Do get your chronology correct would you.....as you like the NYT article....get it from there then check back with me. You might refresh what his injuries were and also tell us how you arrive at the idea the guy was a Racist. Care to cite the evidence anywhere that would support that?

Get over it....your guys are in Jail charged with various felonies to include Theft.

That is where you wind up when you commit an a assault.

[perthsaint]

The racist calls someone a "black b*****d" but isn't a racist?

What planet do you live on?

[BEagle]

Whether or not the NYPD victim used the alleged words "Black bastard", the alleged reaction from 6 Fijian rugby team members would seem rather disproportionate.

(I recall being at Wright-Patt base ops once. Glancing out of the window, the weather looked threatening, with serious nimbostratus rapidly approaching. "I don't like the look of that big black bastard!", I said, as lightning flickered from one particularly ugly looking cloud...

"Hey, what's that you said?", asked a chap from the far side of the room, who resembled a cliff of ebony tightly wrapped in a USAF flight suit. "Well, have a look, mate", I invited him. "Holy $hit, that's one mean black motherf***er - you're not wrong!", was his reply. So our 2 crews went for coffee and banter whilst the heavens opened.)

[OutlawPete]

I wouldnt say giving someone who had stabbed two people (allegedly) a bloody nose was disproportionate. More like evidence of controlled restraint and fortunate that the damage done wasn't worse.

[mad_jock]

you sure that might happen?

Hero's and bums. I just have the opinion that if you wind up the aggression and train the boys to hurt people and send them off to war for 6 months. Never mind the Fijians are naturally that way inclined anyway. Your going to get the occasional incident involving civi's. Realistically the only people that are going to suffer from this is the British army loosing 6 quality soldiers if they get discharged. Which I doubt will happen to be honest most likely broken down the ranks.

And if they do get discharged.

Almost definitely, there is a huge close protection officer market, also as well ex UK troops are the favoured option for doing security on oil tankers travelling around Africa mostly run by ex Royal marines who also like Fijians on there teams. Syria is ramping up now and Afghanistan is getting worse as the US pulls out. Last time I talked to some of them in Erbil the going rate was 60-90k pounds tax free in Iraq going up to 120k pounds in Afghanistan if your in one of the top teams, which I suspect these guys will be able to get into. If they have any EOD skills even more.

These guys have all be in Afgan bar one but his mates will look after him.

They will be getting paid to slot Somali pirates and look hard and produce the goods when the bullets start flying. All of which the Fijians can do without thinking. And they won't be bother not having a quick response team on call.

And even if they did a back ground check if your hiring do you really think smacking a cop is going to be on the don't employ this person to throw walls of lead at attacking pirates and engage them if they get on the boat. As for the discharge they won't care. Most of the team leaders are ex SF and will know the score. And will have smacked a few civi's before in their time. And you only get these jobs with a recommendation of someone already in and an afgan tour will tick so many box's. And having a Fijian on the team criminal record or not is a huge bonus when the poo hits the fan.

They will be more than likely working for American news teams as CPO's. They tend not to use yank CPO's as they aren't low key enough and tend to generate news instead of collecting it.

We had one of those round the training bases type things and one of the tasks was to sort a landy which the wheel has come off without a jack. Using bits of wood etc. Tami just straight arm leg squat lifted the front corner and locked his legs and one of us stuck the wheel back on. Its not only the power they have, its the stamina as well. They quite often get stuck into the heavy weapons platoons and carry stupid amounts of gear all day long fast without resorting to anabolic steroids like the whities do.

And as for suing them they won't have any cash by now and they won't have any assets apart from a flash car/bike which will be on credit and you can't take because the hire purchase firm own it, they will live in barracks in army accom. All there cash will be back in Fiji if they have any.

Your going to sue 6 blokes without a cent to their name not even enough to buy an air fare home. All its going to do is cost the US/UK tax payer. The cop won't get any cash out of them unless they do stay in the military and they take it from there wages. Which won't bother them to be honest as they are very much a what's in there hand is what they have type of people. If they never see it, they never had it so they won't worry about it.

Only thing it might stop them doing is being licensed bouncers in Edinburgh. But I haven't seen any Fijians on the doors in EDI so maybe its not something they are involved with.

So there is absolutely no question in my mind that these guys won't be regretting this for the rest of their lives. It will be a minor blip and something to be laughed about in the bar 6 months after it all gets sorted if not before. There local management in their regiment won't be bothered at all about it, they will just be glad to have them back because as a group they are excellent soldiers. They more than likely have to deal with similar situations monthly if not weekly.

your guys are in Jail charged with various felonies to include Theft.

That is where you wind up when you commit an a assault.

Which won't bother them at all for reasons I have stated above. If you really wanted them to get some pay back you would be wanting them to be released so the rest of the team can get there hands on them. I suspect they would be walking around with slightly more than a few stiches and a broken nose if they did get released. But they wouldn't be crying about it, as they would see the beating as justified. That tami I used to work with apparently had been beaten up by some para's in Aldershot to get his pizza off him. Next day after a 10km force march the medics discovered he had 3 broken ribs, a broken radi in his arm and three bones broken in his foot. The only reason why they pulled him was because he was limping. Didn't stop him finishing in the top 5 out of 40.

[Avionker]

Perthsaint, you really are a very excitable chap aren't you?

Now take a deep breath and think about this.

You are hounding SASless for evidence that he cannot possibly provide. He wasn't there BUT I think that most people are prepared to accept that alcohol played a key part in this incident, and that all 7 participants are unlikely to have been sober.

You said:-

My understanding of what I read is rather better than yours. You claimed the men were drunk and there was an intent to cause mayhem but have provided no evidence to support this. Please now provide specific evidence of the intent and the drunkeness.

I'm perfectly happy with six guys beating up a racist. Ten would have been better.

I'm intrigued that the racist stabber is now reported to be 33 rather than 21.

I agree with you that SASless's claim that they were intent on causing mayhem appears to be without foundation, however you are also making some pretty wild statements.

Now please provide your evidence that the cop racially abused anyone.

You can't provide evidence? Oh that's right, YOU weren't there either were you? Your repeated use of the word 'racist' is based purely on the assumption that the troops are telling the truth and the cop is lying. Evidence please.

And you're perfectly happy with 6 guys beating up one, and in fact 10 would be better you say. Why?

I believe, as you obviously also do, that racism has no place in a civilised society. However how on earth is beating the crap out of someone going to stamp it out? Do you really think that if someone is overtly racist that a bit of a slapping is going to turn them into fervent proponent of equality and civil rights?

All it's going to do is reinforce their ideas, and whilst they might think twice about opening their mouth again, it will not change their beliefs. They will still be racist, they will just be more circumspect about it.

Now do everyone a favour. Read the NY Times article that SASless provided a link to post #87 and take a chill pill.

Regardless of whatever provocation that they may, or may not, have been subjected to these 6 guys appear to have gone "over the top". They'll have their day in court, they will have a chance to defend their actions.

It is more than likely that there was fault on both sides. Can you now please stop trying to convince everyone that the troops are innocent victims of some KKK card carrying, neo-nazi thug and put the race card away.

[Courtney Mil]

Avionker,

Thank you for your balanced view. The NYT article pretty much says it all, as you point out, and you are absolutely correct in your statement about beating up anyone for their views - far from changing the man's mindset, these guys have simply given him reason to think badly of Fijians. We don't even know if he was racist, but if he wasn't, he may be now!

In any event, six soldiers do not have the right to inflict violence on one just because they don't like his views. As BEgs remarked, rather disproportionate.

SASless is quite right, given that none of us were there, they will have their day in court an then perthsaint can stop worrying about the speculation.

BTW, I think it's more a case of perthsaint having the hissy fit, not SASless. Just my opinion.

[barnstormer1968]

The idea of the cop becoming racist or more racist is interesting.

Which race are we thinking of......British (often thought of as English in the USA), Scottish or Fijian. Perhaps he may just dislike Brit soldiers.

Neither here nor there, but just something to think about rather than just a white or black issue.

[Basil]

Avionker, Deffo one of the top, balanced postings

[Basil]

BTW, surprised that parabellum hasn't noted that the little action, IF correctly reported, forms a graphic example of his, and their, regimental motto.

[OutlawPete]

Originally Posted by Courtney Mil:8035643

In any event, six soldiers do not have the right to inflict violence on one just because they don't like his views. As BEgs remarked, rather disproportionate.

According to the article in the NYT (which is basically all that any commentators here have to go on) there's a bit more to it than just disliking his (allegedly racist) views Courntney.
The off duty cop allegedly stabbed two of them first, which in my opinion, puts an entirely different complexion on a open and closed case of assault.

[Torque Tonight]

What on earth is one of New York's finest doing carrying a knife in a bar on a night out, and using it to stab people. Why hasn't he been arrested? In a case of a violent dispute between an off-duty cop and dark skinned foreigners is the default position that the cop must be in the right?

[glad rag]

Only if said dark skinned people are "jocks" it would seem....

[sitigeltfel]

I had a peek over at ARRSE to see what the Brown Jobs had to say about this, and could find nothing

Have the Mods there slapped a ban on comment, or is there a thread lurking that I cannot see?

[Broadsword***]

What on earth is one of New York's finest doing carrying a knife in a bar on a night out, and using it to stab people. Why hasn't he been arrested? In a case of a violent dispute between an off-duty cop and dark skinned foreigners is the default position that the cop must be in the right?

We do not know what type of knife it was and, in NYC, carrying a concealed knife (provided it meets certain criteria) is not necessarily unlawful.

In NYC, as in the UK, carrying a knife, of any type, for 'self defence' is unlawful. If, however, you are carrying a 'legal' knife for some other purpose (e.g. a Swiss Army knife, which comes in handy for all sorts of mundane routine tasks) and you happen to get attacked and use the knife in self defence, then that would probably be lawful. As a cop, presumably, he would have been careful to ensure the knife in question and the reason for his carrying it in a public place, were lawful. We'll see.

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, Pete. Every interpretation of the sequence of events - we may have to wait until 17th to find out just what that was - puts a very different spin on it. I thought it more likely that the cop may have used the knife to defend himself rather than deliberately trying to take on 6 big blokes on his own. We'll have to wait and see about that one.

As for beating someone up for a bit of name calling, I'd like to hear more about the details of that too. I called someone a name once when I was at school, I hope perthsaint doesn't come after me with nine of his friends for that.