Our Boys Behaving Badly
Simple thing called Plea Bargaining.....let's the Court handle the matter easily without any lengthy Trial. It benefits everyone....Victim, Perps, Lawyers, Prosecutors, and Court....as well as the British Army.
Nothing sinister.....happens as a daily course of business in the Court System.
ey103.co.uk/news/uk-and-world/20131102-british-soldiers-admit-new-york-policeman-fight/
Nothing sinister.....happens as a daily course of business in the Court System.
ey103.co.uk/news/uk-and-world/20131102-british-soldiers-admit-new-york-policeman-fight/
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It would be interesting to find out what the RSM has got planned for them when they get back.
500 quid and a couple of days brushing the streets seem to me a bit of get them the hell out of here.
500 quid and a couple of days brushing the streets seem to me a bit of get them the hell out of here.
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Very sad
A Royal Marine who murdered a badly wounded Taliban insurgent must serve at least 10 years in prison for a cold blooded killing which tarnished the reputation of the Armed Forces, a judge has said.
Sgt Alexander Blackman was dismissed in disgrace and told his crime had betrayed the Marines and increased the risk of revenge attacks on British troops.
The 39-year-old experienced soldier who has deployed on six operations stared ahead impassively as he was told he had undermined the work done by British forces in Afghanistan.
Blackman was given a life sentence for the battlefield execution of a badly wounded Taliban fighter during a patrol in Helmand province in September 2011.
Sgt Alexander Blackman was dismissed in disgrace and told his crime had betrayed the Marines and increased the risk of revenge attacks on British troops.
The 39-year-old experienced soldier who has deployed on six operations stared ahead impassively as he was told he had undermined the work done by British forces in Afghanistan.
Blackman was given a life sentence for the battlefield execution of a badly wounded Taliban fighter during a patrol in Helmand province in September 2011.
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"Surely "the increased risk of revenge attacks" was caused by whoever publicised the whole sorry affair in the first place."
Surely it would have been better if there had been nothing to publicise.
Surely it would have been better if there had been nothing to publicise.
You reckon maybe just being there is enough cause for attacks by the Taliban?
Do you think for one instant the Taliban consider this just to be any thing but a normal ordinary event....shooting the wounded?
Do you think hunting down Taliban and AQ fighters by Apache in the dead of night does not amount to the same thing but is acceptable to the very people that are passing judgement on this Marine?
Do we apply the same treatment to Drone Operators when they hit a Wedding Ceremony and kill People in the Process.....and do those passing such harsh judgement on this Marine do the same for those Drone Operators and those who issue the Orders for those missions?
The Crime here was the video....and the results of the video.....not the killing of a Taliban fighter by the Marine. The killing was wrong.....but in my mind does not amount to a Crime.
Perhaps I have a prejudice on this kind of thing as I know what it is like for the Enemy to kill my wounded.....and us to kill theirs in return as happened in another War in another place. It happened in my Father's generation's War as well.
It will happen in the "next" War we fight too.
Welcome to War folks.....it ain't pretty, fair, or conducted as we would like to think War can be fought.
To single out this one Marine and ignore all the other killings is morally wrong.
You ask the Young Man to do Six Deployments to Combat and you get all upset when he kills an Enemy Fighter......something is wrong with that....starting with the Six Deployments to a War that has lasted over Ten Years.
Combine all this with the stupid assed ROE's extant today.....and it is time for the Troops to Stack Arms and come home.....TODAY!
Do you think for one instant the Taliban consider this just to be any thing but a normal ordinary event....shooting the wounded?
Do you think hunting down Taliban and AQ fighters by Apache in the dead of night does not amount to the same thing but is acceptable to the very people that are passing judgement on this Marine?
Do we apply the same treatment to Drone Operators when they hit a Wedding Ceremony and kill People in the Process.....and do those passing such harsh judgement on this Marine do the same for those Drone Operators and those who issue the Orders for those missions?
The Crime here was the video....and the results of the video.....not the killing of a Taliban fighter by the Marine. The killing was wrong.....but in my mind does not amount to a Crime.
Perhaps I have a prejudice on this kind of thing as I know what it is like for the Enemy to kill my wounded.....and us to kill theirs in return as happened in another War in another place. It happened in my Father's generation's War as well.
It will happen in the "next" War we fight too.
Welcome to War folks.....it ain't pretty, fair, or conducted as we would like to think War can be fought.
To single out this one Marine and ignore all the other killings is morally wrong.
You ask the Young Man to do Six Deployments to Combat and you get all upset when he kills an Enemy Fighter......something is wrong with that....starting with the Six Deployments to a War that has lasted over Ten Years.
Combine all this with the stupid assed ROE's extant today.....and it is time for the Troops to Stack Arms and come home.....TODAY!
SASless,
I'm no expert, but I am entitled to an opinion. As an ex serviceman I've watched the attempt to hack the head off a young man who had a life to live. I've seen ritual beheadings of "soft captures" on the Internet, and now we see our judiciary turn against a soldier, of proven ability and fidelity, and hand out a punishment, designed to set an example. I agree with you, why should any British serviceman continue to serve, with the constant threat of our judicial system going PC ? I managed a few years myself, and never, ever, considered that my country would let me down. I think we can now see where their loyalties lie, despite the sanctimonious utterings of the likes of Camoron they will not stand by the troops they order in to battle. Perhaps people contemplating taking up a reserve situation might be having second thoughts.
Smudge
I'm no expert, but I am entitled to an opinion. As an ex serviceman I've watched the attempt to hack the head off a young man who had a life to live. I've seen ritual beheadings of "soft captures" on the Internet, and now we see our judiciary turn against a soldier, of proven ability and fidelity, and hand out a punishment, designed to set an example. I agree with you, why should any British serviceman continue to serve, with the constant threat of our judicial system going PC ? I managed a few years myself, and never, ever, considered that my country would let me down. I think we can now see where their loyalties lie, despite the sanctimonious utterings of the likes of Camoron they will not stand by the troops they order in to battle. Perhaps people contemplating taking up a reserve situation might be having second thoughts.
Smudge
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the difference between us & the Taliban is that we do not condone or allow the murder of prisoners or non combatants
lose that anchor and we're on the road to hell - which is what happened to a lot of US guys in Vietnam - it saps the whole ethos of any armed forces if they turn to instant justice
lose that anchor and we're on the road to hell - which is what happened to a lot of US guys in Vietnam - it saps the whole ethos of any armed forces if they turn to instant justice
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SASless, smujsmith... what "Marine A" did has been a criminal act since before WW2, so taking action against him is neither "PC" nor unexpected.
Murdering a helpless prisoner is nothing like attacking a group of armed active terrorists from the air... nor is it like accidentally hitting a group of civilians due to bad intell. The Apache case is a normal combat action, the wedding party were not the intended targets of the drone attack, but the deliberate murder of a prisoner is forbidden by the laws of warfere that the UK, US, and many other nations agreed to many decades ago.
Those laws apply to the signatories without regard to the actions of any enemy... you can't just ignore them if you feel like it. That way leads to My Lai and similar events.
Murdering a helpless prisoner is nothing like attacking a group of armed active terrorists from the air... nor is it like accidentally hitting a group of civilians due to bad intell. The Apache case is a normal combat action, the wedding party were not the intended targets of the drone attack, but the deliberate murder of a prisoner is forbidden by the laws of warfere that the UK, US, and many other nations agreed to many decades ago.
Those laws apply to the signatories without regard to the actions of any enemy... you can't just ignore them if you feel like it. That way leads to My Lai and similar events.
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Suggest reading of Jeff Blackett's sentencing piece.
Some details weren't as I had read them in the press, i.e the deliberate movement of the casualty from view of the PGSS, the deliberate cessation of first aid, the deliberate wait for the AH to depart and the fact that the Sgt hadn't actually seen any 'trophies' suspended in trees.
I wonder if our unprecedented op tempo might have a few effects wider than just this one?
Some details weren't as I had read them in the press, i.e the deliberate movement of the casualty from view of the PGSS, the deliberate cessation of first aid, the deliberate wait for the AH to depart and the fact that the Sgt hadn't actually seen any 'trophies' suspended in trees.
I wonder if our unprecedented op tempo might have a few effects wider than just this one?
orca,
Found it here.
I nevertheless have to say that there I was thinking that our basic function was to kill the enemy until his will and capability to wage war was destroyed. Must go up to the loft and read my old training précis again. Must have misunderstood first time round.
Found it here.
I nevertheless have to say that there I was thinking that our basic function was to kill the enemy until his will and capability to wage war was destroyed. Must go up to the loft and read my old training précis again. Must have misunderstood first time round.
lose that anchor and we're on the road to hell - which is what happened to a lot of US guys in Vietnam
Document the evidence whereby you make that statement.
You are using a Liberal Myth....in my view....a LIE when you speak as you do.
You are certainly entitled to your Opinion.....but you are not entitled to your own facts.....you must use real, verifiable, demonstrable data and evidence when you make such comments. I suppose you would say the Brits lost their anchor when the RAF resorted to Area Bombing of Cities in an effort to destroy German Factory Workers homes too....right? How many tens of thousands of Civilians did your Forces kill in that process?
Now I know you will throw out My Lai as your proof....but you will ignore the fact it was stopped, reported, and finally prosecuted by the Army. You will also refuse to acknowledge what the NVA/VC did in Hue during 1968 Tet.....they murdered over 3000-5000 people and there was not a peep out of folks like you.
So Harry....prove your statement or shut the hell up!
Green,
I can post several videos of Apaches attacking Enemy forces....and we can see some of those forces being quite plainly Wounded....but still alive....and the Audio contains the phrase...."Hit him again!". That indicates the Air Crew know the guy is wounded...and they re-engage and kill him/them.
Exactly what is different about that and what Marine A did?
Are you trying to suggest the Geneva Accords do not apply to Apache Pilots or that there is a Waiver or Exemption in the Geneva Accords that allows for the Apache Crews to kill wounded enemy personnel?
Understand please.....I am all for what the Apache Pilots do....killing the Enemy is what War is about....and I think the Infantry who deal with the Enemy eyeball to eyeball....should get exactly the same treatment as aircrew who are only slightly more remote from the nastiness.
If the remoteness factor determines who is exempt....then perhaps we shall find everyone wanting to be a UAV Pilot or B-52 Pilot rather than be an Infantry Soldier as that would seem to be the way to never be accused of Murder despite killing dozens of innocent people....or even one "guilty" person.
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SASless
Your post 189 undermines your argument.
This was cold blooded, cynical, premeditated murder of an incapacitated enemy. Yes, it happens, always has and always will. But if we are soldiers of a civilised society then we should certainly not condone it and should rigorously punish those who do it. If you condone his actions you are, in my view, no better than the SS.
Your post 189 undermines your argument.
This was cold blooded, cynical, premeditated murder of an incapacitated enemy. Yes, it happens, always has and always will. But if we are soldiers of a civilised society then we should certainly not condone it and should rigorously punish those who do it. If you condone his actions you are, in my view, no better than the SS.
I am just like the SS am i?
That is not a very nice comment.
Do explain why you think that?
So exactly what was accomplished by prosecuting Marine A for this.....if you admit these acts will always happen.....evidently there is something that causes Soldiers to do this that is not deterred by punishing others. So what is it that causes Soldiers to kill the Enemy?
My arguments have been consistent....it is your interpretation that is the problem.
What you and others don't like is to forced to confront reality.....and that is there is no "Moral High Ground" in War. Touchy Feely PC thinking has no place in War.
That is not a very nice comment.
Do explain why you think that?
This was cold blooded, cynical, premeditated murder of an incapacitated enemy. Yes, it happens, always has and always will. But if we are soldiers of a civilised society then we should certainly not condone it and should rigorously punish those who do it.
My arguments have been consistent....it is your interpretation that is the problem.
What you and others don't like is to forced to confront reality.....and that is there is no "Moral High Ground" in War. Touchy Feely PC thinking has no place in War.
Last edited by SASless; 8th Dec 2013 at 11:44.
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Come on SASless! Are you serious?
Murder and rape have always happened and always will. Do you believe we should then condone it and pardon the perpetrators? If you do, you are...
And I said "no better than...", not "just like...".
Murder and rape have always happened and always will. Do you believe we should then condone it and pardon the perpetrators? If you do, you are...
And I said "no better than...", not "just like...".