Here it comes: Syria
Thanks for the video link, ORAC.
Starting at about time 12, it looks to me like a couple of chaff/flare launches were made, then a flash in the vicinity of the Tail Rotor/Tail Rotor Gear Box. Didn't see any missile smoke trail, but perhaps one hit it after the missileboost phase was over. (Chaff/flare launch due to smoke seen?) (Could also have been well aimed fire from a AAA unit, but my guess would be missile). After a few more looks, maybe those flashes were other hits on the helicopter. Grainy video.
Again, it was hard to make out detail, but the nose pitch down moment looks like the tail rotor and its box came off -- a significant CG change happened. (One cannot be sure if any flight controls were damage by what hit the helicopter, or if the crew were also hit with frag...).
The rotating descent further suggests to me loss of the tail rotor, though what other controls may have been damaged is hard to say.
Tough one to try and salvage. .
EDIT: after looking at that frame by frame analysis provided in downsizer's link, it appears that my guess at a chaff/flare launch is wrong (right before the tail was hit) and that even though the initial report was that the helicopter was out of ammo, the video seems to show it using forward firing ordnance shortly before being hit in the tail. Looks like I get a C- for video analysis.
Starting at about time 12, it looks to me like a couple of chaff/flare launches were made, then a flash in the vicinity of the Tail Rotor/Tail Rotor Gear Box. Didn't see any missile smoke trail, but perhaps one hit it after the missileboost phase was over. (Chaff/flare launch due to smoke seen?) (Could also have been well aimed fire from a AAA unit, but my guess would be missile). After a few more looks, maybe those flashes were other hits on the helicopter. Grainy video.
Again, it was hard to make out detail, but the nose pitch down moment looks like the tail rotor and its box came off -- a significant CG change happened. (One cannot be sure if any flight controls were damage by what hit the helicopter, or if the crew were also hit with frag...).
The rotating descent further suggests to me loss of the tail rotor, though what other controls may have been damaged is hard to say.
Tough one to try and salvage. .
EDIT: after looking at that frame by frame analysis provided in downsizer's link, it appears that my guess at a chaff/flare launch is wrong (right before the tail was hit) and that even though the initial report was that the helicopter was out of ammo, the video seems to show it using forward firing ordnance shortly before being hit in the tail. Looks like I get a C- for video analysis.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 11th Jul 2016 at 18:25.
they were flying a syrian version (a bit weaker from russian one), quite irresponsible from russian pilots to jump in the fight like that without any preparation..brave but irresponsible
Internet analysis suggests it could have been a blue on blue...
https://citeam.org/ruaf-mil-mi-35-hind-e-down/
No idea how plausible the claim is, but I doubt we'll ever know exactly what happened.
https://citeam.org/ruaf-mil-mi-35-hind-e-down/
No idea how plausible the claim is, but I doubt we'll ever know exactly what happened.
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Coup attempt on in Turkey tonight, which complicates things further in the region.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...gunfire-ankara
Wondering if we will have an entire review of UK involvement in this region after PM May Govt. formed and mot recent terror outrages in fellow involvers France.
?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...gunfire-ankara
Wondering if we will have an entire review of UK involvement in this region after PM May Govt. formed and mot recent terror outrages in fellow involvers France.
?
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The articles as per the links below might be interesting for those blaming the Russian AF in affecting civilians while bombing ISIL and likes.
http://www.infowars.com/retaliation-for-nice-france-bombs-120-civilians-in-syria/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...northern-syria
The "score" here seems to be higher than in the cases allegedly reported earlier by some "rebels" hurt by the Russian AF.
This once again proves an obvious fact that having good platforms/aircraft and hi-pres munitions is not the only key to success. ISR "component stack" of C4ISR is often more important when dealing with such enemies who could be effectively "fed" with cheap dumbb ombs (especially as modern avionics can help put them down with some 20 m accuracy).
http://www.infowars.com/retaliation-for-nice-france-bombs-120-civilians-in-syria/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...northern-syria
The "score" here seems to be higher than in the cases allegedly reported earlier by some "rebels" hurt by the Russian AF.
This once again proves an obvious fact that having good platforms/aircraft and hi-pres munitions is not the only key to success. ISR "component stack" of C4ISR is often more important when dealing with such enemies who could be effectively "fed" with cheap dumbb ombs (especially as modern avionics can help put them down with some 20 m accuracy).
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Of course they were, you always drop supplies into a town you have been besieging and bombing for months, and which have finally cut-off and are starving into submission.
On the other hand of course, they could have supporting ground forces, and been trying to get away from the treatment that could expect if they fell behind enemy lines.......
Russian helicopter shot down over Syria killing five people
A Russian transport helicopter has been shot down in Syria, killing all five people on board, a Kremlin spokesman said.
The Mi-8 helicopter was shot down in Idlib province while returning to the Russian air base on Syria’s coast after delivering humanitarian goods to the city of Aleppo, the defence ministry said. The helicopter had three crew members and two officers deployed with the Russian centre at the Hemeimeem air base on board.
Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for Russian president Vladimir Putin, said that “from what we know from information provided by the defence ministry, all those who were on the helicopter died”. He said the Russians “died heroically because they tried to move the aircraft away so as to minimise losses on the ground”.........
http://video.news.com.au/v/490092/SY...dlib-August-01
https://www.dailymotion.com/cdn/mani...92368d345e591a
On the other hand of course, they could have supporting ground forces, and been trying to get away from the treatment that could expect if they fell behind enemy lines.......
Russian helicopter shot down over Syria killing five people
A Russian transport helicopter has been shot down in Syria, killing all five people on board, a Kremlin spokesman said.
The Mi-8 helicopter was shot down in Idlib province while returning to the Russian air base on Syria’s coast after delivering humanitarian goods to the city of Aleppo, the defence ministry said. The helicopter had three crew members and two officers deployed with the Russian centre at the Hemeimeem air base on board.
Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for Russian president Vladimir Putin, said that “from what we know from information provided by the defence ministry, all those who were on the helicopter died”. He said the Russians “died heroically because they tried to move the aircraft away so as to minimise losses on the ground”.........
http://video.news.com.au/v/490092/SY...dlib-August-01
https://www.dailymotion.com/cdn/mani...92368d345e591a
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Interesting article
Erdogan-Putin: Ready to Settle Scores with the US and Europe
Ragheda Dergham, Columnist and Senior Diplomatic Correspondent, Al Hayat (translated from Arabic)
Erdogan-Putin: Ready to Settle Scores with the US and Europe
Ragheda Dergham, Columnist and Senior Diplomatic Correspondent, Al Hayat (translated from Arabic)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Russia deploys Backfires to Iran. I wonder how permanent the deployment will become.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WarfareWW...48392113037312
https://mobile.twitter.com/WarfareWW...48392113037312
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Basing out of Iran as well
Syrian conflict: Russian bombers use Iran base for air strikes - BBC News
Russia's defence ministry says it has used a base in western Iran to carry out air strikes in Syria.
Tupolev-22M3 long-range bombers and Sukhoi-34 strike fighters took off from Hamedan on Tuesday, a statement said. Targets were hit in Aleppo, Idlib and Deir al-Zour provinces, it added. Local groups said 27 civilians had died. It is reportedly the first time Russia has struck targets inside Syria from a third country since it began a campaign to prop up Syria's president last year.
Syrian conflict: Russian bombers use Iran base for air strikes - BBC News
Russia's defence ministry says it has used a base in western Iran to carry out air strikes in Syria.
Tupolev-22M3 long-range bombers and Sukhoi-34 strike fighters took off from Hamedan on Tuesday, a statement said. Targets were hit in Aleppo, Idlib and Deir al-Zour provinces, it added. Local groups said 27 civilians had died. It is reportedly the first time Russia has struck targets inside Syria from a third country since it began a campaign to prop up Syria's president last year.
Is this in support of Syrian ops? Interesting. I looked at a chart and determined that they have to overfly Iraq, or Turkey, to get there. Have the weird turned pro? Has Erdogan decided to let Vlads lads fly over Turkey to get to Syria?
Who owns the airspace over Iraq? Is the Iraqi government cool with the Backfires overflying?
Are the Americans/Western airspace folks in the loop so that deconfliction is available?
We do indeed live in interesting times.
Who owns the airspace over Iraq? Is the Iraqi government cool with the Backfires overflying?
Are the Americans/Western airspace folks in the loop so that deconfliction is available?
We do indeed live in interesting times.
Lonewolf,
This isn't new - the RFAF have been doing this sort of routing over Iran/Iraq for months now. I can only assume that the Government of Iraq is content or it wouldn't happen. There's no need to overfly Turkey; fly from whichever home base down to Mozdok, stage there, route over the Caspian and hang a right over Tehran and keep going til you hit Raqqa, Dayr as Zawr or Aleppo. All this does is put the BACKFIRES a little bit closer to action and enables a more timely response.
But when you consider the range and payload of a BACKFIRE and the watch the video on RT of them dropping a dozen or so probable general purpose bombs, such a limited payload given the total capacity, and when set against the firepower they already have in Syria - FROGFOOT, FENCER, FULLBACK, not to mention HIND, HAVOCK and HOKUM attack aviation along with the odd TOS-1 thermobaric systems, dropping a few GP dumb bombs means very little. If I were a betting man, I'd say it was either a forward deployment tied in with the Kavkaz 16 exercise programme or an Info Ops / diplomatic move. Capability wise it adds very little. If it's not a demonstration or messaging piece, then the question to ask is just what exactly is wrong with all the fast air and attack aviation already in country? Where is the deficiency that they can't get the job done?
This isn't new - the RFAF have been doing this sort of routing over Iran/Iraq for months now. I can only assume that the Government of Iraq is content or it wouldn't happen. There's no need to overfly Turkey; fly from whichever home base down to Mozdok, stage there, route over the Caspian and hang a right over Tehran and keep going til you hit Raqqa, Dayr as Zawr or Aleppo. All this does is put the BACKFIRES a little bit closer to action and enables a more timely response.
But when you consider the range and payload of a BACKFIRE and the watch the video on RT of them dropping a dozen or so probable general purpose bombs, such a limited payload given the total capacity, and when set against the firepower they already have in Syria - FROGFOOT, FENCER, FULLBACK, not to mention HIND, HAVOCK and HOKUM attack aviation along with the odd TOS-1 thermobaric systems, dropping a few GP dumb bombs means very little. If I were a betting man, I'd say it was either a forward deployment tied in with the Kavkaz 16 exercise programme or an Info Ops / diplomatic move. Capability wise it adds very little. If it's not a demonstration or messaging piece, then the question to ask is just what exactly is wrong with all the fast air and attack aviation already in country? Where is the deficiency that they can't get the job done?
Lonewolf,
The Iraqi's have been allowing Russian bombers and cruise missiles to overfly from Iranian airspace since 2015. Tu-22M3 Backfires were regularly flown over Iran/Iraq to attack targets in Syria. See following from 2015 showing Iranian fighters escorting Tu-95MS Bear H before they launched their cruise missiles over Iranian airspace into Syria.
https://theaviationist.com/2015/11/2...rt-ruaf-tu-95/
U.S. cleared Iraqi airspace so Russia could bomb non-ISIS targets in Syria | Washington Examiner
The Iraqi's have been allowing Russian bombers and cruise missiles to overfly from Iranian airspace since 2015. Tu-22M3 Backfires were regularly flown over Iran/Iraq to attack targets in Syria. See following from 2015 showing Iranian fighters escorting Tu-95MS Bear H before they launched their cruise missiles over Iranian airspace into Syria.
https://theaviationist.com/2015/11/2...rt-ruaf-tu-95/
"The Russians did notify the coalition as per the memorandum of understanding for safety of flight," said U.S. military spokesman Col. Chris Graver. "They informed us they were coming through and we ensured safety of flight as those bombers passed through the area and toward their target and then when they passed out again."
Iranians been supporting Russian air strikes last year such as their F-14A Tomcats escorting their Backfire and Blackjack strategic bombers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRXlz2yB5ok
Its kind of surreal as from the 1980s till a decade ago (the retirement of the USN F-14D )- various carrier based F-14A/D were embarked - shadowing / escorting any of the Soviet Frontal Aviation TU-16/22/95/160 that came close to any battle group so one would see a pair of Tomcats escorting away a curious TU-95 or TU-22
cheers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRXlz2yB5ok
Its kind of surreal as from the 1980s till a decade ago (the retirement of the USN F-14D )- various carrier based F-14A/D were embarked - shadowing / escorting any of the Soviet Frontal Aviation TU-16/22/95/160 that came close to any battle group so one would see a pair of Tomcats escorting away a curious TU-95 or TU-22
cheers
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"Capability wise it adds very little. If it's not a demonstration or messaging piece, then the question to ask is just what exactly is wrong"
Indeed - but we all know that equipment is often deployed for other reasons - training, using up old bombs, getting a Campaign Medal.... and there's an election in Russia soon sogood to show the taxpayers what they spend their Roubles on........
Indeed - but we all know that equipment is often deployed for other reasons - training, using up old bombs, getting a Campaign Medal.... and there's an election in Russia soon sogood to show the taxpayers what they spend their Roubles on........
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Krauthammer: Russia?s Iran Airbase Signals the Collapse of the Obama Policy | National Review
"......But this is an astonishing development. The Iranians are fanatically nationalistic, they never allow anybody to operate out of their territory. For Russia to be operating bombers out of Iranian air bases and going over Iraqi territory that used to be under our control is a demonstration of the total bankruptcy and the collapse of the Obama policy. The whole idea of the Iran deal was a rapprochement between us and Iran. Instead it’s a rapprochement between Iran and Russia. Now that all the sanctions are gone, it’s shipping over the most advanced air defense systems, using Iranian airspace, acting as allies.
This has never happened before. The entire northern part of the Middle East is now under an Iranian–Russian condominium because this administration and its naïveté has allowed Russia and Iran to progress with no resistance and with nothing on our side. You have Hezbollah in the fight as well. This is a very powerful coalition, and the Arabs are defenseless without us and we are nowhere to be seen."
"......But this is an astonishing development. The Iranians are fanatically nationalistic, they never allow anybody to operate out of their territory. For Russia to be operating bombers out of Iranian air bases and going over Iraqi territory that used to be under our control is a demonstration of the total bankruptcy and the collapse of the Obama policy. The whole idea of the Iran deal was a rapprochement between us and Iran. Instead it’s a rapprochement between Iran and Russia. Now that all the sanctions are gone, it’s shipping over the most advanced air defense systems, using Iranian airspace, acting as allies.
This has never happened before. The entire northern part of the Middle East is now under an Iranian–Russian condominium because this administration and its naïveté has allowed Russia and Iran to progress with no resistance and with nothing on our side. You have Hezbollah in the fight as well. This is a very powerful coalition, and the Arabs are defenseless without us and we are nowhere to be seen."
Krauthammer: Russia?s Iran Airbase Signals the Collapse of the Obama Policy | National Review
============
This has never happened before.
============
This has never happened before.
Looking back since 9-11, nearly 15 years ago, it is obvious that GW Bush and his team wanted to change the Middle East. They succeeded. Change has occurred. President Obama (champion of the Arab Spring) also wanted to change the Middle East. He too succeeded. Change is taking place.
Its' just not quite the change either of them envisioned as the end state, because there are other players in this game. (That too has happened before ...)
What is it that the Bard said? "The play's the thing."
Lonewolf wrote
No problem, Lonewolf. It appears that the Russians have not requested cruise missile overflights at the moment.
Iraqi airspace opened for Russia, confirms Abadi - Iraqi News
Thanks TEEJ, I recall the cruise missile, not that common of a mission, so it seems that this fits into a standard ops theme at this point.
Baghdad – Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi announced on Tuesday that Iraqi airspace has been opened for Russia, but this is made only with some ‘conditions’.
Speaking at a press conference in Baghdad today Abadi said, “We opened our skies to the Russians under some conditions. We have not received an official request from Russia about the passage of any types of rockets across our skies. ”
Speaking at a press conference in Baghdad today Abadi said, “We opened our skies to the Russians under some conditions. We have not received an official request from Russia about the passage of any types of rockets across our skies. ”
Moscow presses Turkey for access to US airbase
In The Times today:-
Extract from article -
Extract from article -
Russia is pressing Turkey for access to a key airbase used by the US as it tries to extend its influence in the Middle East.
The American-built Incirlik base, about 65 miles from the Syrian border, is used by Nato and has about 50 US nuclear warheads stored on site. A senior Russian politician said that allowing Russian jets and bombers to use it would be a logical continuation of President Erdogan’s efforts to rebuild Turkey’s relations with the Kremlin.
“It just remains to come to an agreement with Erdogan that we get the Nato base Incirlik as [our] primary airbase,” Senator Igor Morozov, a member of the upper house’s committee on international affairs, said. This would allow the Russian air force to subject Islamic State and other jihadist groups to “constant bombing” and bring the war to a quicker conclusion, he said.
“You’ll see, the next base will be Incirlik,” he told Izvestia, a Moscow daily, after the Kremlin revealed this week that its bombers had started using a base in Iran to launch attacks on Syria. “This will be one more victory for Putin.”
The American-built Incirlik base, about 65 miles from the Syrian border, is used by Nato and has about 50 US nuclear warheads stored on site. A senior Russian politician said that allowing Russian jets and bombers to use it would be a logical continuation of President Erdogan’s efforts to rebuild Turkey’s relations with the Kremlin.
“It just remains to come to an agreement with Erdogan that we get the Nato base Incirlik as [our] primary airbase,” Senator Igor Morozov, a member of the upper house’s committee on international affairs, said. This would allow the Russian air force to subject Islamic State and other jihadist groups to “constant bombing” and bring the war to a quicker conclusion, he said.
“You’ll see, the next base will be Incirlik,” he told Izvestia, a Moscow daily, after the Kremlin revealed this week that its bombers had started using a base in Iran to launch attacks on Syria. “This will be one more victory for Putin.”