If Scotland Declares UDI..........
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Always good events and the Forres gathering is particularly friendly. If you don't like cat swinging Outlaw then best you stay away from the World Pipe Band Championships in Glasgow (RAF is usually represented). I'll be there this summer - love the stuff.
I like the way Forres combine it with a community day with a car show and stalls etc. Shortbread tin Scotland is alive and well!
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I am not, nor have I ever said so, of the opinion that Scottish taxpayers have not contributed to UK national wealth! 
Nor would I advocate that the rest of the UK make it "as difficult" as possible for Scotland to break away and be independent.
My comment was rather directed at the fact that the SNP appear, at least in public, to simply think that, if the referendum goes their way, they can walk away getting everything they want/expect from the remainder of the UK. Which incidentally includes a stated intent to have all nuclear weapons removed from Scottish soil. I believe the reality could be somewhat different.
One also has to wonder what the public reaction, and politicians chase public opinion, within the rest of the UK will be to a Scottish yes vote. No-one likes to be rejected...
The people of Scotland have to make their own minds up, and the reaction of the rest of the UK shouldn't be a contributory factor. I just happen believe that some of the comments coming from the SNP about the aftermath of a "yes" vote are somewhat shy of the likely reality.
Nor would I advocate that the rest of the UK make it "as difficult" as possible for Scotland to break away and be independent.
My comment was rather directed at the fact that the SNP appear, at least in public, to simply think that, if the referendum goes their way, they can walk away getting everything they want/expect from the remainder of the UK. Which incidentally includes a stated intent to have all nuclear weapons removed from Scottish soil. I believe the reality could be somewhat different.
One also has to wonder what the public reaction, and politicians chase public opinion, within the rest of the UK will be to a Scottish yes vote. No-one likes to be rejected...
The people of Scotland have to make their own minds up, and the reaction of the rest of the UK shouldn't be a contributory factor. I just happen believe that some of the comments coming from the SNP about the aftermath of a "yes" vote are somewhat shy of the likely reality.
Really - I think in all respect you are seeing what you want to see. I don't think for one moment that the SNP, nor Salmond in particular, is as amateur as you suggest. As for the nuclear option - do not be so naive as to think this will not become a strong bargaining chip. Salmond may have stated that his intention is to see nuclear weapons out of Scotland. How bad does he want that vice all other aspects of the settlement requirements! Think about it, why is the UK government so dogmatically against Scotland's departure from the Union. It did not take this position over Ireland. I must admit, in all of this debate, I have never had that question answered satisfactorily without vague notions of "we are better together".
Come on "call me Dave" convince me - I am a vote tart or is that "entarten" - not convinced Courtney
Last edited by TomJoad; 5th May 2013 at 18:56.
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Lossiemouth Staish etc.
Nice photo in Forres. Also nice to see ex MAEOp Barry Ashby hobnobbing with the Staish. Barry is a very fine piper (and English as well) who I believe will now do his bit to upgrade the Lossiemouth Pipe Band.
Well, all everyone's politics apart, I would give up my day job and easy life to go back to Leuchars to fly pretty much anything the Air Force wouuld tell me to... Two fantasic tours there. Oh, and my father's tours at Kinloss and Turnhouse when I were a nipper. Happy days.
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Well, all everyone's politics apart, I would give up my day job and easy life to go back to Leuchars to fly pretty much anything the Air Force wouuld tell me to... Two fantasic tours there. Oh, and my father's tours at Kinloss and Turnhouse when I were a nipper. Happy days.
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Scotland = Berwick?
Some years ago one of our Kings, Edward I think, borrowed Berwick from the Scots in retaliation for their continual raids accross the border, he didn't give it back. This results in Berwickshire, a Scottish county, having its county town at Duns not Berwick.
During a little local upset, the Crimea, England Scotland and Berwick declared war on Russia but later only England and Scotland made peace. Perhaps Berwick is still at war with Russia.
The Berwickers recently voted to rejoin Scotland so perhaps when Scotland goes independent the Jocks will ask nicely for it back.
Having been to Berwick a few times if the Scots want it we should agree.
During a little local upset, the Crimea, England Scotland and Berwick declared war on Russia but later only England and Scotland made peace. Perhaps Berwick is still at war with Russia.
The Berwickers recently voted to rejoin Scotland so perhaps when Scotland goes independent the Jocks will ask nicely for it back.
Having been to Berwick a few times if the Scots want it we should agree.
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naa- Berwick is no longer at war with Russia - IIRC somewhere back in the 60's the Russian Ambassador made a trip there and signed (or passed over) some document stating that "for you the War is over" - it was an oversight but it only took 115 years to correct
not bad going for the foreign services of both countries
not bad going for the foreign services of both countries
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apologies if I missed in the haggis and skirts pages......zzz
so - weee ick has his vote and by some miracle they go yes....
he stamps his feet over the Vanguards and insists they get moved orf his land - the drunken yes voters agree....
Where do we park the big buckets of sunshine?
it's a big ask to move all of coulport elsewhere - Faslane is a bit of a big ask on it's own but where COULD we put it if we had to - and as far as I can make out the most likely place is the sunny city of jannerville....
Plymouth - or should we turn Gib into the new coulport - it's big enough...?
so - weee ick has his vote and by some miracle they go yes....
he stamps his feet over the Vanguards and insists they get moved orf his land - the drunken yes voters agree....
Where do we park the big buckets of sunshine?
it's a big ask to move all of coulport elsewhere - Faslane is a bit of a big ask on it's own but where COULD we put it if we had to - and as far as I can make out the most likely place is the sunny city of jannerville....
Plymouth - or should we turn Gib into the new coulport - it's big enough...?
Even if we could find somewhere else to 'keep' them, it would take years to build and then the site at Coulport would take many, many years to clean up before handover.
Devonport has some Vanguard class infrastructure, and in extremis i'm reasonably sure the US would allow the boats access to Kings Bay in order to keep the programme safe - though whether that would go so far as to have the boats permanently based there and operating from there is perhaps another issue.
Devonport looks like the option to me - the (few) noises i've heard tell me that in the event of a 'yes' vote, both London and Edinburgh want a deal that see's the boats move south in an orderly way and that the SNP accept that there's going to be a time lag while the facilities are being built down south.
what i've heard (political talk) is that London does not want a long-term deal to keep the boats in Scotland (a 21st century version of the Treaty ports in Ireland) as it thinks that such a plan is too much at the whim of whichever government happens to be in power in Edinburgh and needs a quick political win by putting a spanner in the 'English nukes' wheel.
Devonport looks like the option to me - the (few) noises i've heard tell me that in the event of a 'yes' vote, both London and Edinburgh want a deal that see's the boats move south in an orderly way and that the SNP accept that there's going to be a time lag while the facilities are being built down south.
what i've heard (political talk) is that London does not want a long-term deal to keep the boats in Scotland (a 21st century version of the Treaty ports in Ireland) as it thinks that such a plan is too much at the whim of whichever government happens to be in power in Edinburgh and needs a quick political win by putting a spanner in the 'English nukes' wheel.
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Not quite. This is from Berwick-upon-Tweed Feature Page on Undiscovered Scotland
Even Edward IV's final capture of the town in 1482 didn't entirely simplify matters. Under the Treaty of Perpetual Peace between Henry VII of England and James IV of Scotland in 1502 (just 11 years before the Scottish army and nobility was destroyed by the English at the Battle of Flodden) Berwick was given a special status as being "of" the Kingdom of England but not "in" it. As a result the town thereafter needed special mention in royal proclamations.
This had one odd effect. When Queen Victoria signed the declaration of war on Russia in 1853, she did so in the name of "Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and the British Dominions beyond the sea." But Berwick was not mentioned in the Treaty of Paris that concluded the Crimean War in 1856, leaving the town technically still at war with Russia.
A peace treaty was only finally signed by a Russian diplomat and the the Mayor of Berwick in 1966. As the mayor said at the time: "You can tell the Russian people that they can now sleep peacefully in their beds".
This had one odd effect. When Queen Victoria signed the declaration of war on Russia in 1853, she did so in the name of "Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and the British Dominions beyond the sea." But Berwick was not mentioned in the Treaty of Paris that concluded the Crimean War in 1856, leaving the town technically still at war with Russia.
A peace treaty was only finally signed by a Russian diplomat and the the Mayor of Berwick in 1966. As the mayor said at the time: "You can tell the Russian people that they can now sleep peacefully in their beds".
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there have been a lot more Vanguard visits to Devonport over the last couple of years
We don't need to recreate all the facillities in bonnie Scotland either - stick most of the spares on boats alongside like the old submarine tenders - and keep the spare warheads at Burghfield - they can run them down the motorway to Devonport in about 6 - 10 hours if a spare is needed
We don't need to recreate all the facillities in bonnie Scotland either - stick most of the spares on boats alongside like the old submarine tenders - and keep the spare warheads at Burghfield - they can run them down the motorway to Devonport in about 6 - 10 hours if a spare is needed
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apologies if I missed in the haggis and skirts pages......zzz
so - weee ick has his vote and by some miracle they go yes....
he stamps his feet over the Vanguards and insists they get moved orf his land - the drunken yes voters agree....
Where do we park the big buckets of sunshine?
it's a big ask to move all of coulport elsewhere - Faslane is a bit of a big ask on it's own but where COULD we put it if we had to - and as far as I can make out the most likely place is the sunny city of jannerville....
Plymouth - or should we turn Gib into the new coulport - it's big enough...?
so - weee ick has his vote and by some miracle they go yes....
he stamps his feet over the Vanguards and insists they get moved orf his land - the drunken yes voters agree....
Where do we park the big buckets of sunshine?
it's a big ask to move all of coulport elsewhere - Faslane is a bit of a big ask on it's own but where COULD we put it if we had to - and as far as I can make out the most likely place is the sunny city of jannerville....
Plymouth - or should we turn Gib into the new coulport - it's big enough...?
What planet do you live on - The UK basing nuclear weapons in Gib.
Last edited by Always Up; 11th May 2013 at 11:54.
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Lord Healey doing his bit for the YES vote!
Alex Salmond brought that up in his interview on BBC Radio 4 this morning. James Naughtie batted it off rather well by stating, rather sarcastically and pointedly that it would never do for a politician to do anything like that before an election.
I had been hoping for some reasoned, structured economic plan from him this morning, but it was really just a bleat about how nasty Westminster has been to Scotland, how rich their oil is going to make them and how they're going to save up their pennies for when the oil runs out.
I doubt he won many "Yes" votes this morning.
Audioboo / Salmond: ?All to play for? in Scottish independence referendum
I had been hoping for some reasoned, structured economic plan from him this morning, but it was really just a bleat about how nasty Westminster has been to Scotland, how rich their oil is going to make them and how they're going to save up their pennies for when the oil runs out.
I doubt he won many "Yes" votes this morning.
Audioboo / Salmond: ?All to play for? in Scottish independence referendum
I refer you, once again, to this (and post 179):
BBC News - Who has a right to claim North Sea oil?
If anyone actual bothers to read it this time, you will see that government tax revenues from North Sea Oil currently equate to approximately 1% OF UK GDP.
While there might be tremendous wealth in terms of oil under the North Sea, it is extracted at a finite rate - and the governments cut are what they get in tax revenues.
How any UK political party can be "worried stiff" about losing 1% of their income stream has got me somewhat confused.
Oil wealth, in terms of tax revenues, might represent 10% of an independent Scotlands income, but its only about 1% for a unified UK.
BBC News - Who has a right to claim North Sea oil?
If anyone actual bothers to read it this time, you will see that government tax revenues from North Sea Oil currently equate to approximately 1% OF UK GDP.
While there might be tremendous wealth in terms of oil under the North Sea, it is extracted at a finite rate - and the governments cut are what they get in tax revenues.
How any UK political party can be "worried stiff" about losing 1% of their income stream has got me somewhat confused.
Oil wealth, in terms of tax revenues, might represent 10% of an independent Scotlands income, but its only about 1% for a unified UK.
Heathrow Harry, he's not going to look too sharp when the tap starts to run dry AFTER the referendum and it's all too late to come home.
Biggus, yes, it was the oil revenue's worth to Scotland that Mr S was on about this morning.
Biggus, yes, it was the oil revenue's worth to Scotland that Mr S was on about this morning.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 21st May 2013 at 12:55.