Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Bristows to take over SAR from 2015

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Bristows to take over SAR from 2015

Old 27th Mar 2013, 16:24
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,680
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Crab's just come back from skiing. He'll be here shortly!

Winco: if it's not broke.....good old fashioned 1950's Great British mentality methinks. Thank God someone thought differently and were in a position to pursue it. This is the 21st century not the 19th.
The role of mil SAR is long long past its shelf life. Tired old airframes cracking as we speak costing millions and millions to keep airborne DAILY! The cost of supporting even a basic 'airman' running into 6 figures/annum when pensions and running costs are calculated. Massive and I mean really massive overstaffing from too many engineers too many administrators and top heavy senior officers. And finally no role for them anymore because we don't have any mil jets to eject from!

This process and transition is OVERDUE by atleast 10 years.

And I have to add my voice to that of fareast and JimLad1 in that you only show your true ignorance when you comment on the inadequacies of civvy crews. You are indeed an embarrassment to the fraternity when you declare your lack of knowledge regarding bravery/capability/application of civvy aircrew. The funny thing is that possibly two thirds are ex mil anyway
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 16:31
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,263
Received 463 Likes on 187 Posts
When Crab finishes throwing up his lunch after hearing the news....he might be back!
SASless is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 16:58
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 464
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Fastnet!

MiloM
Or the Fastnet race incident. How many were used there - something like 15 combined from Navy and RAF??
err actually Milo, no RAF cabs took part, we were not allowed to, we were prevented by our dark blue bretheren who wanted all the glory for themselves. It took years for the RAF PR machine to try and catch up with the RN and they never actually did. Ever wondered how there was so much camera work going on during the Fastnet fiasco?
Three yellow Wessex and at least one shiny new yellow Sea King were turned down since, quote "this is a navy show" unquote.
Of course after the (deserved) medals were distributed by pusser the RN assets were formally put under RAF Rescue Co-ordination Centre Control.

Last edited by Al-bert; 27th Mar 2013 at 16:59.
Al-bert is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 17:26
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South of England
Age: 74
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
BRISTOWS, know what I mean?
SOSL is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 17:29
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Darling - where are we?
Posts: 2,580
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
The Bean Counters have found a cheaper way of doing this SAR business and the RAF was just no cost effective anymore.
is the major concern from my perspective.

I'm not SAR, never have been and never will be, so I don't have any personal axe to grind with the decision, but where does it stop? So we have found someone who can provide a mil-SAR capability cheaper. We have a SoS who has more in common with McNamara than Churchill (and didn't Macnamara's business orientated approach work wonders), so I can see the bean counters will be sitting there with their calculators, eagerly looking to see how this goes and assuming all goes well, will be looking for what else can be hived off.

But SASless' comments, which I have no doubt are correct, demonstrate that this is just another step towards treating the military as a business with a balance sheet which has to be presented to the shareholders. Unfortunately it isn't that simple; the military is not and never will be a business and the sooner the politicians realise that they are dealing with the nation's insurance policy, the easier it will be for everyone concerned. The nation as a whole will benefit as we will have a properly funded and resourced capability across all the Services, serving personnel will be proud to be a part of a credible organisation and enjoy doing their bit rather than what we have now, which is a grind it out until pension point approach in an underfunded, over stretched and politically abused Military.

As capable as Bristow undoubtedly is, it's just another step on the road to contractorisation of the entire military capabilty and if we're not careful, the only role that guys and girls in uniform will have in years to come is to get shot at because no other organisation could be found to take on the role at a price the Government was willing to pay.

Last edited by Melchett01; 27th Mar 2013 at 17:31.
Melchett01 is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 18:40
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Zummerset
Posts: 1,041
Received 13 Likes on 5 Posts
Bismark,
I fully understand, and support, the need for FAA crews to practise SAR for the plane guard role on the CVS and for 'man overboard' on smaller vessels.

However, it is trite to suggest that SARTU should stop teaching basic SAR techniques to RAF SH crews. 84 Sqn may run contractor maintained aircraft, but the crews are all RAF. The FI solution may well be a front line type (Chinook or Puma) used for a joint SH/SAR role. Finally, let's not forget that EVERY RW pilot is a potential lifesaver....some basic understanding of Sits and winching should remian mandatory for all RW operators (though, regrettably I hear the SARTU syllabus has already been thinned down somewhat).

I've never been SAR but have dabbled with it from time to time. I can say with certainty that I took a lot from my B412/Sea King sorties and applied some of the techniques and methods to my SH flying. BTW I've also launched under a 'Rescue' c/s in the FI in a CH47 and very nearly conducted a long range SAR sortie to winch an injured sailor of a boat in the SOuth Atlantic - I can tell you I was greatful for both my SARTU training and the presence of a real SARBoy whilst planning it.

As for SAR-H...err...the new contract, well, good luck to all concerned. I hear glowing reports re the S92 and the AW139 looks good too. Like many, my concern is replacing the initial cadre. I don't share some peoples' optimism - other organisations such as DHFS have struggled once the first wave start retiring. Add in the laydown of the new flights (not an especially good match for the existing flights....) then future recruitment may require higher incentives. Time will tell.
Evalu8ter is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 19:29
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,222
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
When I went through helicopter training at Tern Hill we were all sent off to Valley for a fortnight to do the mountain flying and wet winching course. I used to practise wet winching in various parts of the world and had a rescue for real with a Puma at the Blue Hole in Belize.

I gather they don't do those courses anymore.
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 19:29
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: West of Greenwich
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Have bristow under another name not been training SAR crews from Valley for years? Whether a rescue is carried out by civie or military doesn't the tax payer foot the bill at the end of the day. Isn't it about bang for your buck, and all that good stuff.
Pink Panther is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 19:37
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,333
Received 80 Likes on 32 Posts
I think I'm glad I won't be sitting on Martin Baker's finest in 2017. Along the East Coast there will be SAR bases at Manston and Humberside! The others are at Lee on Solent, Newquay (St Mawgan), St Athan, Caernarfon, Prestwick, Stornoway, Sumburgh and Inverness. That is not enough SAR coverage for safe single-engine fast jet ops (IMHO). I had not noticed this before.

Bobbing about in the ogg-splosh having jumped out of my single engine JSF and having lost my dinghy and a hole in my goon-suit - helicopter ETA 1hr+ and my survival time 25-45 minutes depending on sea temperature. I do hope the Govt is putting money aside to pay the aircrew's next of kin compensation for the negligence of their decision...

Of course, they could always limit the extent of FJ trg areas!

LJ
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 19:46
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bakseetblatherer
This is the real important part, for me. WTF are Bristows et al going to do once the supply of ex-military SAR experienced people dry up? Are they going to open an academy to train them, YEAH RIGHT!
Since Bristow already does aircrew training, and has for decades, THEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE ALREADY DOING!

But please, keep blathering your utter nonsense, it is most amusing.
GreenKnight121 is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 20:06
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
surely a question mark in all this is Westland's ability to certify the AW189 in time. Anyone know how well thats progressing?
Milo Minderbinder is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 20:25
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 60
Posts: 2,051
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 6 Posts
The crews will be capable, pilots will be pilots, not military officers with career development and secondary mess duties to contend with. New pilots will be fed into the system as they are now, they will gain experience and will become good captains. Believe me, civilian trained pilots who gain experience can be just as good as military. My base oppo on the air ambulance is doing just fine. There will be a major difference...... EVERYTHING must be justified financially, that tatty nav bag will last a bit longer, maps will be reused over months, lights will be turned off when buildings are empty, stationary will be from the cheapest supplier. Doesn't sound much, but commercial becomes number one priority. The military could learn a lot about budgets from a civvie company.
jayteeto is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 20:29
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,680
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 20:32
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 464
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Jayetc
that tatty nav bag will last a bit longer, maps will be reused over months, lights will be turned off when buildings are empty, stationary will be from the cheapest supplier
you forgot 'buy your own watch' a Breitling natch!
Al-bert is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 20:34
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
LJ they may well have done the sums and decided that it would be cheaper to pay out. It all comes down to economics, they will be able to estimate the probability (one in five years maybe?) and compensation £2million? So £4million every 10 years. £1.6 billion for 10 bases, so £160 million for an extra base for 10 years.

Extremely rough figures =
Compensation £4million or £160million for an extra base.

And as you point out there are ways of mitigating the risk by limiting the FJ training areas which sounds quite reasonable
Ivan Rogov is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 20:53
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: in the mess
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Plenty of role-relatable SAR manoeuvres in that 189 video, eh? If the survivor ever needs to be kept alive and entertained by multiple wingovers it seems the perfect platform! However, judging by the canted tail and, let's be frank, the rather dodgy take-off to the hover, it would appear that Aw have designed in their trademark cross-coupling issues that will keep the rescue pilots working nice and hard next to a ship or a cliff...
nice castle is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 21:24
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,222
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
nice castle

You have just demonstrated an abysmal, if any, knowledge of modern helicopter control systems.
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 21:33
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: in the mess
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That have sufficient authority in turbulent mountain air 100% of the time? We'll see Sir!
nice castle is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 22:04
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 687
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Didn't see anything in that AW189 video that I didn't do with my trusty Wessex 2 while display pilot at Chivenor - except of course I used to do some winching during my routine

Good luck to the girls and boys who takeover the SAR role from the military but Inverness to Humberside seems like an awful lot of coastline and oil rigs to be covered by just 2 on state a/c

HF
Hummingfrog is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2013, 22:10
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Evalu8,

It does not need a SARTU to teach SAR skills. The RN have managed without such a unit for ever. SAR is a secondary role for all RN RW aircrew and this forms part of the monthly training requirement. The skills required for Vertrep, boat transfers etc are identical. The rest is environmental training which all aircrew do as part of their normal flying.

I am going to sound biased against the RAF but generally they made a meal out of RW training generally taking much longer than the FAA and AAC to get people FL.
Bismark is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.