Bristows to take over SAR from 2015
KINTYRED - "merely endorse the view that they have nothing military about them"
Not sure which bit of MilSar you acquired your recent experiences in but your description of the c urrent Military SAR community (RN and RAF) is a long way short of the mark.
You're either 'baiting' (in which case, well done cos you've hooked me!) or you haven't got a clue.
Not sure which bit of MilSar you acquired your recent experiences in but your description of the c urrent Military SAR community (RN and RAF) is a long way short of the mark.
You're either 'baiting' (in which case, well done cos you've hooked me!) or you haven't got a clue.
The current Coastguard S92s (and possibly the previous S61Ns) have FLIR
Rum, old man Bristow, was very rum.
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Reckon Bristows will be better able to put a cost on a rescue. Next stop morons who are caught short due to their own gross negligence will get a bill in the post. And not before time.
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Couldn't agree more Jimlad. As I said its great to see the civilian SAR going to a civilian organization. I just hope they can hack the military SAR.
Rgds SOS
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" Are you saying that 6 - 8 engineers can keep a fleet of two (civvie) helicopters airworthy 24/7??
That is an astonishing feat if they can "
If you don't mind me saying so, that's a rather naive view of how the civilian world operates in contrast to the Mil.
Please remember that civilians are not constrained by the C.o.C, don't have secondary duties, dets etc and that the privileges of a type rated Licence holder, i.e. certification, negate the requirement for a C.o.C at a stroke.
And if you do need more bodies ( in a hurry, or for base maintenance ) then it's simple. Engineers come from other bases. The costs of overtime / travel / expenses / accom are minimal in comparison to having another permanent position and for the base work, contractors are always available.
Add to that the element of maintainability and the fact that civilians are far more versatile ( this is not a disparaging comment about Mil.engineers I should add, but Airframe / Engine has been the norm in the civilian world for years, likewise Avionics Multi-Cat ) then the manning levels are greatly reduced.
The same reduced, in comparison to the RAF, levels can be seen at any airline Line station.
The cessation of Mil SAR will, I would suggest, have a negative impact on invaluable PR for the Armed Forces. Irrespective of whether the aircraft is painted yellow or dayglo / grey, the general public know precisely who they are and what they do. PR of course, is unquantifiable in financial terms, let alone in goodwill.
On the lighter side, the changeover may well cause some confusion for those in the "meedja" who simply put up the headline "Army chopper plucks walkers from disaster !"..or whatever the emergency...and duly show a RAF/ RN Sea King. We can look forward therefore to the first time a Bristows helicopter gets identified as "Army".
That is an astonishing feat if they can "
If you don't mind me saying so, that's a rather naive view of how the civilian world operates in contrast to the Mil.
Please remember that civilians are not constrained by the C.o.C, don't have secondary duties, dets etc and that the privileges of a type rated Licence holder, i.e. certification, negate the requirement for a C.o.C at a stroke.
And if you do need more bodies ( in a hurry, or for base maintenance ) then it's simple. Engineers come from other bases. The costs of overtime / travel / expenses / accom are minimal in comparison to having another permanent position and for the base work, contractors are always available.
Add to that the element of maintainability and the fact that civilians are far more versatile ( this is not a disparaging comment about Mil.engineers I should add, but Airframe / Engine has been the norm in the civilian world for years, likewise Avionics Multi-Cat ) then the manning levels are greatly reduced.
The same reduced, in comparison to the RAF, levels can be seen at any airline Line station.
The cessation of Mil SAR will, I would suggest, have a negative impact on invaluable PR for the Armed Forces. Irrespective of whether the aircraft is painted yellow or dayglo / grey, the general public know precisely who they are and what they do. PR of course, is unquantifiable in financial terms, let alone in goodwill.
On the lighter side, the changeover may well cause some confusion for those in the "meedja" who simply put up the headline "Army chopper plucks walkers from disaster !"..or whatever the emergency...and duly show a RAF/ RN Sea King. We can look forward therefore to the first time a Bristows helicopter gets identified as "Army".
Last edited by Krystal n chips; 27th Mar 2013 at 04:43.
So when Bristows arrive on scene, will the first call be to ask for insurance details before rescue, someone has to pay.
If your fishing trawler is taking on water, don't forget to have your insurance docs to hand.
I am sure the insurance companies will love that, an excuse to bump up insurance premiums, mind you it might be a good idea for hill walkers etc to have some sort of insurance.
If your fishing trawler is taking on water, don't forget to have your insurance docs to hand.
I am sure the insurance companies will love that, an excuse to bump up insurance premiums, mind you it might be a good idea for hill walkers etc to have some sort of insurance.
Regardless of the other misguided nonsense in this thread, can we be clear about one thing? There is only one 'S' in Bristow 
East Anglian coverage?
Historically covering East Anglia from the Wash down to the Channel was by the then Wessex and Sea King at Coltishall and at Manston complimented by the HMCG Whirlwind then S-61N from the late 60s onwards to the 90s?
Then it was the Flight at Wattisham covering those areas.
Question about the proposed basing for this region will be back to Manston.....but shouldnt be at least an a/c based up or detached up this end say at Norwich or North Denes?
Also won't SARTU end up training foreign customers under contract still to DHFS and on behalf of AW?
Cheers
Then it was the Flight at Wattisham covering those areas.
Question about the proposed basing for this region will be back to Manston.....but shouldnt be at least an a/c based up or detached up this end say at Norwich or North Denes?
Also won't SARTU end up training foreign customers under contract still to DHFS and on behalf of AW?
Cheers
Last edited by chopper2004; 27th Mar 2013 at 08:42.
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Sorry 212Man, we are all guilty of spelling Britows incorrectly.
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If it looks like an American, smells like an American, is headquartered in America, is run by Americans and is on the American stock exchange, I think it must be American. I'm sure it'll be an absolute pleasure for British taxpayers to contribute towards their directors' bonuses and shareholders' dividends. 
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Almost ALL of the new pilots required to make this work will be the ex SAR drivers/crewmen. Win, win.
This is the real important part, for me. WTF are Bristows et al going to do once the supply of ex-military SAR experienced people dry up? Are they going to open an academy to train them, YEAH RIGHT!
This is the real important part, for me. WTF are Bristows et al going to do once the supply of ex-military SAR experienced people dry up? Are they going to open an academy to train them, YEAH RIGHT!
Last edited by bakseetblatherer; 27th Mar 2013 at 11:06.
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K n C
Forgive my naivity! but it is quite a feat, whichever way you look at it.
8 Engineers, to keep 2 aircraft serviceable for 24 hours and for 365 days a year? Yes, naive or not, if its true (and I'm genuingly not doubting you) then it is outstanding.
My concern is that this is just the thin edge of a very big wedge.
There have already been concerns on this forum over charging costs to those being rescued and what this will ultimately mean is that anyone who goes out in a boat, or who goes hill walking, mountaineering or whatever, will be forced to take out some form of insurance policy to cover and possible costs for rescue.
More money, more costs, it is just another way of this government making money out of anything they can think of.
There is also the question of future SAR back end aircrew and their training. Does Bristow have a training policy in place for the guys down the back or are they relying on a surplus glut of ex RAF/RN SAR winchops to fill the void?
Sooner or later, I fear that it will all turn to worms and we will be left in the smelly stuff.
I'm sorry, but I just wish we had spent the £1.8bn on an updated Military SAR Force.
Forgive my naivity! but it is quite a feat, whichever way you look at it.
8 Engineers, to keep 2 aircraft serviceable for 24 hours and for 365 days a year? Yes, naive or not, if its true (and I'm genuingly not doubting you) then it is outstanding.
My concern is that this is just the thin edge of a very big wedge.
There have already been concerns on this forum over charging costs to those being rescued and what this will ultimately mean is that anyone who goes out in a boat, or who goes hill walking, mountaineering or whatever, will be forced to take out some form of insurance policy to cover and possible costs for rescue.
More money, more costs, it is just another way of this government making money out of anything they can think of.
There is also the question of future SAR back end aircrew and their training. Does Bristow have a training policy in place for the guys down the back or are they relying on a surplus glut of ex RAF/RN SAR winchops to fill the void?
Sooner or later, I fear that it will all turn to worms and we will be left in the smelly stuff.
I'm sorry, but I just wish we had spent the £1.8bn on an updated Military SAR Force.
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8 Engineers, to keep 2 aircraft serviceable for 24 hours and for 365 days a year?
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I wouldn't get too excited about the Britishness of Brisstowss 
Good question on the tax thing though, very topical at the moment with good reason and much more important than their accents. Are they going to pay a reasonable amount back in to the UK system?
I was told a few years ago on a visit to a defence company that BAe didn't stand for British Aerospace anymore and it was effectively an international defence company. I think most of the others are too, MBDA doesn't stand for anything anymore. Apparently they are able to compartmentalise there companies to ensure national technology and information are not transferred (I wasn't sure how this worked unless they shot people who were going to work on other projects)
Was at Stornaway a good few years ago when Jigsaw was potentially going to have lots of helicopters, visited the GC chaps and they said that their companies plan was to not just to recruit ex mil but also take direct entrants. They recognised the advantages of trained and skilled individuals but didn't want a large transfer of the full Mil ethos and crew room attitude to the company. It made a lot of sense but would obviously cost a little more initially, however it seemed a very sensible approach for sustainability.
Point of order, only pilots do pilot stuff the hero stuff is normally left to the other crew members AKA winch/radar operators, rear crew, winch weights, crewmen, talking radalts, 20 mins, cabin crew, tea boys, paramedics, wire tensioners, etc.
I doubt they will be pilots, they make awful passengers 
Good question on the tax thing though, very topical at the moment with good reason and much more important than their accents. Are they going to pay a reasonable amount back in to the UK system?I was told a few years ago on a visit to a defence company that BAe didn't stand for British Aerospace anymore and it was effectively an international defence company. I think most of the others are too, MBDA doesn't stand for anything anymore. Apparently they are able to compartmentalise there companies to ensure national technology and information are not transferred (I wasn't sure how this worked unless they shot people who were going to work on other projects)
Was at Stornaway a good few years ago when Jigsaw was potentially going to have lots of helicopters, visited the GC chaps and they said that their companies plan was to not just to recruit ex mil but also take direct entrants. They recognised the advantages of trained and skilled individuals but didn't want a large transfer of the full Mil ethos and crew room attitude to the company. It made a lot of sense but would obviously cost a little more initially, however it seemed a very sensible approach for sustainability.
Point of order, only pilots do pilot stuff the hero stuff is normally left to the other crew members AKA winch/radar operators, rear crew, winch weights, crewmen, talking radalts, 20 mins, cabin crew, tea boys, paramedics, wire tensioners, etc.
I doubt they will be pilots, they make awful passengers
Last edited by Ivan Rogov; 27th Mar 2013 at 11:41.
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Also won't SARTU end up training foreign customers under contract still to DHFS and on behalf of AW?
WTF are Bristows et al going to do once the supply of ex-military SAR experienced people dry up?
There is also the question of future SAR back end aircrew and their training.
I suspect that there are plenty of highly skilled aircrew out in civvie world who are quite capable of embracing the SAR task. It is not black magic, nor particularly difficult to master - just exceptional flying skills, outstanding captaincy and crew cooperation. The Military do not have a monopoly on such attributes. Some off the greatest rescues over the past 20 or so years have been conducted by a very young FAA crew flying a single pilot RN Lynx with a young Able Seaman (non-aircrew) as the man on the end of the wire.
I am sure Bristow will fulfil the remit admirably.