Bristows to take over SAR from 2015
Biggus.....the question remains.
What Rules limit/prevent Bristow Aircraft and Crews from flying to the current limits the RAF use today?
What Rules limit/prevent Bristow Aircraft and Crews from flying to the current limits the RAF use today?
Sasless: Bristow's will operate to CAP999, the Mil: no rules really. Do what you need to do, to get the job done. If it means flying under HT cables - do it, If it means hover taxiing up the face of a mountain in zero viz/swirling snow, hoping to stay visual with the rock face - so be it. In fact we'll give you a medal for so doing. If it means landing on the side of a mountain in white out conditions to pick up a dead body - do it. Crash however - and suddenly .......you have no friends. That's the difference between the CAA and the Mil. The CAA tries to prevent you from losing your friends. The mil lends you some rope.
Again, I re-iterate and I ask all military personnel to remember this: In civvy street the word "attrition" doesn't exist in the Ops manual (AOC). You're going to have to recalibrate your outlook when you cross the divide.
A duty of care runs thru the fabric of civvy aviation which doesn't exist to the same extent in the mil. The mil is only just learning this through the introduction of the MAA, which this generation of mil managers will struggle with for years to come.
By all means massage these principles when under enemy fire, but there is absolutely no room whatsoever for attrition in any mil / or civvy SAR environment (CSAR is another story).
Your answer SASless is: CAP 999.
Again, I re-iterate and I ask all military personnel to remember this: In civvy street the word "attrition" doesn't exist in the Ops manual (AOC). You're going to have to recalibrate your outlook when you cross the divide.
A duty of care runs thru the fabric of civvy aviation which doesn't exist to the same extent in the mil. The mil is only just learning this through the introduction of the MAA, which this generation of mil managers will struggle with for years to come.
By all means massage these principles when under enemy fire, but there is absolutely no room whatsoever for attrition in any mil / or civvy SAR environment (CSAR is another story).
Your answer SASless is: CAP 999.
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 29th Mar 2013 at 01:59.
.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genuine question.
A few posters have reacted indignantly to suggestions that mil SAR is civ SAR in mil clothing.
To someone who simply has no idea - could someone answer the very simple question:
What does a mil crew bring to the party that a civ crew doesn't given parity of equipment and training?
Thanks in advance,
Orca.
A few posters have reacted indignantly to suggestions that mil SAR is civ SAR in mil clothing.
To someone who simply has no idea - could someone answer the very simple question:
What does a mil crew bring to the party that a civ crew doesn't given parity of equipment and training?
Thanks in advance,
Orca.
By his tome and pre-conceptions I'd conclude that TC is currently a military pilot? - Thomas Coupling
Surely his interesting post wasn't quite that long ....
Jack
Surely his interesting post wasn't quite that long ....
Jack
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Biggus,
I have read the entire thread. I can summarise it by saying that the civ crews seem to be more efficient in terms of maintenance and that the civ crews appear to have no rules. Then again the mil crews appear to operate in very poor conditions so maybe this isn't a factor.
The RN crews seem to think that they are adequately trained due core skills plus a top up. The RAF crews seem to think that SME is the way to go.
No one has given any evidence at all as to why mil crews would be any better than the civ crews - but when people like myself ask this very basic question/ raise the subject we are flanned with 'well you haven't got a clue' type answers.
In the absence of any evidence I must say as a complete outsider that no-one has offered me any compelling case as to why we will be worse off with only civ SAR.
But then again, I haven't got a clue...I am just perplexed as to why no-one would offer me one? But thanks for your help.
I have read the entire thread. I can summarise it by saying that the civ crews seem to be more efficient in terms of maintenance and that the civ crews appear to have no rules. Then again the mil crews appear to operate in very poor conditions so maybe this isn't a factor.
The RN crews seem to think that they are adequately trained due core skills plus a top up. The RAF crews seem to think that SME is the way to go.
No one has given any evidence at all as to why mil crews would be any better than the civ crews - but when people like myself ask this very basic question/ raise the subject we are flanned with 'well you haven't got a clue' type answers.
In the absence of any evidence I must say as a complete outsider that no-one has offered me any compelling case as to why we will be worse off with only civ SAR.
But then again, I haven't got a clue...I am just perplexed as to why no-one would offer me one? But thanks for your help.
orca,
...er, no!
The civ crews don't have "no rules" as you put it, indeed they have more restrictive ones than the military.
I suggest you re-read posts 127 and 142.
Interesting that nobody has commented on my comment about a 1/6th reduction in the number of assets.
...er, no!
The civ crews don't have "no rules" as you put it, indeed they have more restrictive ones than the military.
I suggest you re-read posts 127 and 142.
Interesting that nobody has commented on my comment about a 1/6th reduction in the number of assets.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Likely because, due to higher reliability and lower maintenance needs of the new aircraft, that theoretical "1/6 reduction in assets" will actually work out in reality to the same OR MORE assets actually capable of flight at any given moment!
GK121,
You're making educated guesses - largely because you aren't familiar with the set-up in the UK...
Unless the new contract provides considerably greater coverage than at present, which I very much doubt, there is only one crew on duty at any one time per base!
12 bases with 1 crew each = 12 assets potentially available.
10 bases with 1 crew each = 10 assets potentially available.
2 aircraft per base is what provides you with down time for u/s aircraft.
You're making educated guesses - largely because you aren't familiar with the set-up in the UK...
Unless the new contract provides considerably greater coverage than at present, which I very much doubt, there is only one crew on duty at any one time per base!
12 bases with 1 crew each = 12 assets potentially available.
10 bases with 1 crew each = 10 assets potentially available.
2 aircraft per base is what provides you with down time for u/s aircraft.
Last edited by Biggus; 29th Mar 2013 at 21:12.
The new civilian set up will have more reliable a/c as they are newer but will they be able to surge assets when required.
When the Air India 747 crashed off Cork we were able to produce 3 Seakings from RAF Brawdy (we had a training unit aircraft attached because the RN at RNAS Culdrose were on block leave).
The 1st and 2nd standby a/c were fully crewed but the 3rd had 3 pilots and a winchop. The 3rd pilot acted as winchman as he had previously been a load master before re-roling as a pilot.
This was 27yrs ago so the Seakings were younger and very serviceable. Will a civilian unit's S92s be as serviceable as they get older having been exposed to a salt laden atmosphere - who knows? They will however not have the surge ability that the Military has had.
HF
When the Air India 747 crashed off Cork we were able to produce 3 Seakings from RAF Brawdy (we had a training unit aircraft attached because the RN at RNAS Culdrose were on block leave).
The 1st and 2nd standby a/c were fully crewed but the 3rd had 3 pilots and a winchop. The 3rd pilot acted as winchman as he had previously been a load master before re-roling as a pilot.
This was 27yrs ago so the Seakings were younger and very serviceable. Will a civilian unit's S92s be as serviceable as they get older having been exposed to a salt laden atmosphere - who knows? They will however not have the surge ability that the Military has had.
HF
Hummingfrog: you talk some complete and utter bollocks.
At 10am on the morning of Sunday 23rd June 1985, I was duty SAR for an RN SeaKing which launched 40 minutes after the Air India Jumbo disappeared off radar. Our a/c was the 1st on scene to meet a calm sea of 200+ dead bodies and debris scattered over 6 miles of sea. The RAF were to turn up over an hour later.
What on earth are you talking about, re: surge. There will be 22 SAR cabs FFS available to "surge" if the national wheel falls off. And believe me matey, all 19 SeaKings available at any one time (on paper) will NEVER ever be able to launch en mass. Many are broke or being repaired...................
At 10am on the morning of Sunday 23rd June 1985, I was duty SAR for an RN SeaKing which launched 40 minutes after the Air India Jumbo disappeared off radar. Our a/c was the 1st on scene to meet a calm sea of 200+ dead bodies and debris scattered over 6 miles of sea. The RAF were to turn up over an hour later.
What on earth are you talking about, re: surge. There will be 22 SAR cabs FFS available to "surge" if the national wheel falls off. And believe me matey, all 19 SeaKings available at any one time (on paper) will NEVER ever be able to launch en mass. Many are broke or being repaired...................
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 30th Mar 2013 at 10:06.
The civ crews don't have "no rules" as you put it, indeed they have more restrictive ones than the military
SAR Operating Minima
4.1 The operator is to specify the minima appropriate to SAR operational flights, SAR training and any other categories of flight (e.g. air tests, positioning, demonstration flights).
4.2 Operating minima for the dispatch and continuation of a SAR operational flight are at the discretion of the aircraft commander. However, he must consider the urgency of the task, crew and aircraft capability and the requirement to recover the aircraft safely.
4.3 SAR operations will require alleviations from the ANO. Examples of such alleviations are contained in Appendix 1. The operator is to ensure that the Operations Manual contains appropriate procedures.
4.1 The operator is to specify the minima appropriate to SAR operational flights, SAR training and any other categories of flight (e.g. air tests, positioning, demonstration flights).
4.2 Operating minima for the dispatch and continuation of a SAR operational flight are at the discretion of the aircraft commander. However, he must consider the urgency of the task, crew and aircraft capability and the requirement to recover the aircraft safely.
4.3 SAR operations will require alleviations from the ANO. Examples of such alleviations are contained in Appendix 1. The operator is to ensure that the Operations Manual contains appropriate procedures.
Do what you need to do, to get the job done.....
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Biggus,
My public apologies - I have re-read TC's post and had mis-read it first (and second) time round. I thought it said that CAP999 was 'no rules really'. My mistake.
I am still, however, as a seasoned military aviator of sound mind, trying to form an opinion as to what the actual upshot of this might be. Your own post at 127 seems to hit the nail on the head as 'only time will tell'. If that's the expert opinion then I will use it as my answer.
Cheers and best wishes.
My public apologies - I have re-read TC's post and had mis-read it first (and second) time round. I thought it said that CAP999 was 'no rules really'. My mistake.
I am still, however, as a seasoned military aviator of sound mind, trying to form an opinion as to what the actual upshot of this might be. Your own post at 127 seems to hit the nail on the head as 'only time will tell'. If that's the expert opinion then I will use it as my answer.
Cheers and best wishes.
There's a big difference between a 'rule' and a 'limit,' as I point out above. The Rule is that the Ops manual must state the limitations, the limitation is "Commander's discretion" ! 
Thomas coupling
I am afraid that it is you TC that is
.
Flight 182 disappeared at 0714 GMT on 23 Jun 85 we were scrambled shortly after 0730GMT and were first on the scene to be confronted by a patch of aviation fuel about 1/2nm across in which were floating bodies, wheels, seats and a lot of overhead baggage lockers. We searched the area looking for survivors and as we reached our fuel limit for return to the mainland we made the decision to recover bodies which were taken to Cork.
I think your memory is either faulty as if you were scrambled at 10am you arrived long after the search was started or you believe the usual RN PR that they are always first at an incident never mind the truth
HF
Hummingfrog: you talk some complete and utter bollocks.
At 10am on the morning of Sunday 23rd June 1985, I was duty SAR for an RN SeaKing which launched 40 minutes after the Air India Jumbo disappeared off radar. Our a/c was the 1st on scene to meet a calm sea of 200+ dead bodies and debris scattered over 6 miles of sea. The RAF were to turn up over an hour later.
At 10am on the morning of Sunday 23rd June 1985, I was duty SAR for an RN SeaKing which launched 40 minutes after the Air India Jumbo disappeared off radar. Our a/c was the 1st on scene to meet a calm sea of 200+ dead bodies and debris scattered over 6 miles of sea. The RAF were to turn up over an hour later.
"talking some complete and utter bollocks"
Flight 182 disappeared at 0714 GMT on 23 Jun 85 we were scrambled shortly after 0730GMT and were first on the scene to be confronted by a patch of aviation fuel about 1/2nm across in which were floating bodies, wheels, seats and a lot of overhead baggage lockers. We searched the area looking for survivors and as we reached our fuel limit for return to the mainland we made the decision to recover bodies which were taken to Cork.
I think your memory is either faulty as if you were scrambled at 10am you arrived long after the search was started or you believe the usual RN PR that they are always first at an incident never mind the truth
HF