Bomber Harris Interview on TV (merged - AGAIN!)

[Pali]

Imagination

Perception of events will change during the time. What was considered as a standard approach for war opps in WW2 would not stand the test today. When I see returning soldiers from our semi-wars of today I see heroes, but I am not so certain if the politicians who are sending them are not criminals after all.

Accept my apologies for mistakes in English language however it is not my native tongue.

In the beginning I want to reassure all involved - you fought a just case. I visited Auschwitz very recently (see some photos here) and it was quite a hard experience to see all that stuff. The problem starts with imagination. To see a big heap of children shoes, barracks, crematoria, etc. that is horrible per se, but when I stood at the edge of stairs to gas chambers I couldn't help myself and I just had to think about what the victims felt, what went on - I even couldn't imagine how any SS-man could stand that environment.

So yes, it was good to fight Nazi Germany at whatever toll. The problem is the imagination. It is very human to think about the consequences of own deeds. If you were a member of bomber crew you may try not to think about what happened down in the fire storm you incinerated. You have the luxury of being far and you have very little choice after all. An order is an order and that's it. I remember a film with Clint Eastwood (Gran Torino) where he plays a Korea war veteran and there is a priest who wants him to confess. Priest used an expression - you must suffer from all you did though it was ordered. But that was not the real problem. In the course of film Eastwood will say unforgettable line: It is what you did what was NOT ORDERED which will haunt you…

I remember few discussions with my UK friends and I was amazed how many of them were ashamed till today about Munich agreement when Britain broke the word and let us Czechoslovakians being swallowed by Hitler. But it is me who feel ashamed that our politicians decided to capitulate under the threat of total war with Germany. Yes, I really think it is better for a nation to take the toll for keeping own honour even if the situation seems hopeless.

There is a great film about the ordeal of a soldier who participated in an action which haunts him since - watch Last Samurai film and the way Cpt. Algren deals with his conscience and what is the way out after all.

What I try to say with this long essay - nobody can really say what a soldier should feel about own deeds. I am far from saying that Bomber Harris did something which can be considered as war crime (from a today's viewpoint) nor I know how far it was ordered to him or if it was his own idea on how to make war. I just know that sentient individual will be far from making categorical statements. Can you stand an idea that you bombed a little child who died in a horrible pain? Yes, off course you can, but…
I've read once that Britons hated U-Boats very much but once they saw the famous film Das Boot they suddenly saw a common german sailor - crew member who served and suffered too and the feeling regarding U-Boot sort of changed in UK (at least by those who saw the film).

I heard about drone operator who attacked a dwelling with suspected Taliban targets but at the very last second he saw a little child appearing on the scene. I can imagine that he has something to think about for the rest of his life.

It is our imagination which will work here (against us). Did you know that one of the reasons why Nazis decided to use gas chambers? Because it was not possible to ask SS members to shoot so many women and children. They actually tried but it created so much trouble that they had to change the way how to accomplish this grim task. I tell you, I had to weep when I edited my photos from Auschwitz…

Why so many people started doubts about bombing cities in WW2? Because journalists started to cover the war latest in 60's. US probably lost Vietnam war because of imagination. It was horrible for civilians, soldiers and PUBLIC to watch the war.

It was sort of bearable for bombing crews to do their job. If the same people would be infantry and they would be asked to demolish the same buildings with artillery face to face knowing civilians are dwelling inside they would probably oppose the order. Because imagination will fail you if you are closer to the battlefield and suffering.

I think that if any Air Marshall would order the same course of action today he would probably end as a war criminal. I don't say it was the same thing THEN. Also the belief that nation can be broken and demand the end of war is wrong. Britain was not broken by Blitz and Germans weren't too. Different times different viewpoints. The main difference is how public is looking at the issue TODAY.

Bomber crews had a very little choice and I consider them being heroes. They defended own country, bravely and with fatal end in too many instances. The higher command the more responsibility. But it is far from being black or white.

If anybody want me to make finite judgements then my answer is NO. I feel with commanders, with soldiers (and all the victims). Some people who faced action during any war may come away with it, but it is all about empathy and imagination.

We better avoid wars, don't we?

[Chugalug2]

Pali:-

We better avoid wars, don't we?

Well Amen to that! The only trouble is that we can't always avoid them. Heaven knows we (the Brits) tried to avoid them in the 1930's, at the cost of your country amongst others, Pali! But in the end we failed and the rest is, well, history. One we did avoid though was WW3, and we avoided it by being ready to fight and to be seen to be ready to fight. If we had failed there as well, your country would again have been in the front line and the destruction levelled upon it, and all the others, would have made what Harris presided over seem minor league.
We always look back on past major wars with disgust, not only at the cost in lives and materiel, but also in the way they were conducted, as though we could have conducted them better ourselves. Far more appropriate perhaps to judge ourselves rather than judge others. What are we doing to avoid future conflict? Is our country ready to stand up and be counted, or merely to rely on others to do the dirty work? Are we ready and willing to fight, or do we prefer to criticise those who are? Better by far to carry a big stick and talk quietly rather than shrill empty handed at those prepared to confront evil.
War has a nasty habit of being unavoidable, I'm afraid, no matter how agreed we are about its evilness.
Thank you for posting here, Pali, a welcome fresh outlook from afar!

[Chris Scott]

Pali,

Thank you for giving us the perspective of one whose grandparents presumably experienced the Nazi jackboot, and who himself grew up in the Soviet Empire. I had the privilege of flying with Josef Rechka in my youth, and his dignified reticence to recount his experiences gave me a tiny insight of the agony of the Czechoslovaks.

You may have noticed that Britain has been slowly brainwashed by the liberal, metropolitan elite, which longs to disassociate itself from the very actions which preserved the freedom it enjoys. Most of our leading politicians, some of them children of the CND, are barely old enough to have understood the Cold War; certainly not old enough to have been dismayed by news of the crushing of the Prague Spring.

To follow on from Chugalug2, we now have a prime minister whose instinct is to rail against tyranny abroad; but with too shrill a voice, while chopping up his stick for firewood.

[Fareastdriver]

Don't blame the generals for what happens in wars. Generals don't start wars, it's politicians that start wars.

Generals stop them.

[Blacksheep]

Different times different viewpoints. The main difference is how public is looking at the issue TODAY.

No. The fact is, Bomber Command and its leader were placed at arm's length right from VE day. By those who had selected the targets and given AM Harris his orders. The objective of disabling Germany's ability to wage war was achieved, but our political leaders of the time could not stomach taking responsibility for the consequences of what it took to do that.

Your comment on U-Boats was interesting. My father's ship forced U845 to the surface then sank the U-Boat in a one hour running surface engagement before rescuing the survivors. The submariners expected rough treatment from the RN ratings but were surprised at being treated well, with a change of clothing, hot food and cigarettes. The surviving members of the two crews remain in contact to this day. As my father says, all who venture upon the sea are comrades, it is the sea itself that is the cruel enemy.

[Pali]

Interesting debate here

In fact my grandfather fought in WW1 on eastern front. He was paramedic and being wounded by machine gun fire. Then my father was too young to fight in WW2. That war was a big tragedy and the shame of capitulation after Munich agreement was gradually repaired by the actions of Czechoslovak pilots fighting in RAF during battle of Britain. Also there was an uprising in Slovakia in 1944 which took Germans more than 2 months to crush it and even then the partisan groups bothered Nazi till the end.

If there would be conflict with NATO during my military time I would serve as SAM operator and I would aim our rocketry at some readers of this forum. Thank God it never happened because I would be in a position when I would have to fight on the wrong side. I would perceive it as defending soviet system rather than homeland Communist regime was an oppression which most of you can't even imagine, it was even more vicious than Nazi at times.

When I look into history I can clearly see that common people seem to have too little power to stop the war. But there is one thing which can be done. Long before major war can start there is always some tyranny involved and it starts with violations of human rights. This is something which must be guarded. Good people don't speak out and that enables dictators to rise to power.

Coming back to bombing Third Reich: I had a German fellow - older guy I used to climb with on sandstone cliffs near Dresden. He was 14 at the time of big raid and once I asked about how it was. It was peculiar that he wasn't able to speak about it even 40 years later. Even if he tried he wasn't able to give me more than 2 sentences and then it was over. He apologised but simply couldn't say a word, he lived directly in downtown Dresden in 1945.

[SCAFITE]

Area Bombing

I have recently been reading a number of books on Bomber Command, Bomber Boys Patrick Bishop, The Doomed Youth of Bomber Command, and Battle for Hamburg and the Nuremberg Raid both by Martin Middlebrook.

What comes across is that Harris was insubordinate against the directive of higher command once his popularity among the British press and public had grown. After the Battle of the Ruhr higher directive was to go for aircraft, tank and gun factories, plus Oil production in the run up to D Day. Harris convinced Portal and Churchill that he could win the war by flattening Berlin at the cost of 400 to 500 Aircraft. By March 1944 he had loss over a 1,000 Bombers and crews plus a similar number so badly damaged they would not fly again, in the meantime German production of weapons peaked in late 1943 early 1944.

Remember in late 1943 the USAAF had been almost withdrawn from the Battle having been shot out of the skies in the late summer of 1943, leaving only Bomber Command ranging over Germany. Yes raids were made against other targets but the main focus was Berlin, and it was knocked into rubble but did not stop theGerman from increasing weapon production. It was at this time rumblings in the Houses of Parliament and in some press questioning the morality of area Bombing and I think that Churchill and higher RAF Command started to distance themselves from what would be coming at the end of the war.

In March 1944 after the disastrous raid on Nuremberg which we lost more RAF flyers in just over an hour than we did in the Battle of Britain, Bomber Command was given over to Supreme Allied Command and Harris was drawn into line, which he did not like, referring to the raids against other targets as raids forthe Oily Boys. It was during the period of the fall of 1943 to March 1944 that Bomber Commands losses were at their peak and they were losing the front line strength of about 800 bombers every 5 or 6 weeks.

What Bomber Command had to do during the War was a terrible act but at a time of total war. The problem was at the end of the war higher command could not face the responsibility of what they had to do to win the war, and AM Harris carried the can along with the brave men of Bomber Command.

During the release of the Film War games in the 1960s about a Nuclear attack on the UK it mentioned that we would have to shoot the worst of the wounded especially the badly burned. It also stated if you don’t think we would do that, that’s what the Germans had to do with their badly burned civilians after the Hamburg Fire raid of July 1943, where we killed about 50,000 German for the loss of 13aircraft. That was one of the reason the film was banned for a long time, as the UK Government did not think the British public wanted reminding of what we had done in the War.

It has been a sad seventy or so years for the veterans of Bomber Command and only now have we given them the Memorial and Medal they deserved, but you have to ask why it has taken so long.

[Pontius Navigator]

What comes across is that Harris was insubordinate against the directive of higher command once his popularity among the British press and public had grown

This never stopped Churchill from sacking a general.

[cockney steve]

I marvel at the bravery of those who obeyed orders to fly in ****heap antiquated aircraft which were totally outclassed.

We all tend to focus on the glory of the Lanc, Spitfire and Hurricane but what about the other dozens of underpowered, outgunned,poor-handling types?
I was privileged to know a Recce pilot ( E J MILNE DFC ) who claimed that the American Mustang (his ride) was streets ahead and being unarmed didn't matter 'cos he could outrun anything else in the air!
the heirarchy who sent these brave fellows to almost certain death, are the ones who should not rest easy in their graves.

"the right tactic" has nothing to do with it. it was used by the winning side and wasthe correct course of action. Harris was strong enough to pick up a very s**tty stick and use it to beat our enemies into submission.
a resolute and professional military man, undoubtedly....the bravery was the perogative of those beneath him .

[DC10RealMan]

I help to run an Air Cadet course at RAF Linton-on-Ouse during the winter period.

The cadets are Senior Cadets who are between 17-23 and I take the opportunity to walk around the station with them, explaining the history of the wartime station and that they are walking in the footsteps of the Heroes of RAF Bomber Command.

They become acutely aware that the young airmen of Bomber Command were the same age as themselves when serving on operations, a fact which many of them find astonishing.

I would also add that there seems no difference between them and the young men and women who saved this country in the hour of its greatest peril.

[Danny42C]

Bomber Harris.

Probably I am the oldest survivor from those days, but even I have little to add to what has been said. It may well be that Harris exceeded his authority on occasion. He would not have been the first Commander to do so, and he will not be the last. If it turns out well, Authority will take all the credit. If it goes wrong - you're on your own, mate !

As I have mentioned before, the (anticipated) effect of "area" bombing on civilian morale was as big a factor in the minds of the war planners as the material destruction involved. It is not the size of the dog in the fight that counts, but the size of the fight in the dog. Hitler thought he could "break" our morale, he didn't. We thought we could break the German civilian morale, we didn't.

But that was no reason why he - or we - would not try. If you want to (or are forced to) fight global war, you must desire the end (victory), and you must desire all the means you can lay your hands on to get it - many of these will not be pretty. Nice guys don't win wars.

"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" (as Harry Truman memorably observed).

D.

[BEagle]

Notwithstanding the contemporary standards, one can only but wonder whether, to use the Cold War nuclear vernacular, counterforce rather than countervalue targetting would have yielded a more expeditious end to the war in Europe.

By the way, how many of you brave keyboard warriors have actually been to Dresden and spoken to any of the present generation?

Or visited the restored Frauenkirche, completed in 2005 and explained why you felt it was necessary to raze it.....

On 13 February 1945, Anglo-American allied forces began the bombing of Dresden. The Frauenkirche withstood two days and nights of the attacks and the eight interior sandstone pillars supporting the large dome held up long enough for the evacuation of 300 people who had sought shelter in the church crypt, before succumbing to the heat generated by some 650000 incendiary bombs that were dropped on the city. The temperature surrounding and inside the church eventually reached 1000 degrees Celsius. The dome finally collapsed at 1000 on 15 February. The pillars glowed bright red and exploded; the outer walls shattered and nearly 6000 tons of stone plunged to earth, penetrating the massive floor as it fell.

If there were indeed essential military targets in Dresden which required such a counterforce strike, then please would someone elucidate. Because all I've read in this thread so far is general comment about the wartime bravery of Bomber Command crews, which is, of course, indesputable.

However, I do remain to be convinced about the destruction of Dresden, but would be so if someone can provide sufficient evidence to justify the action.

The bombing of Dresden was also used by the Soviets, in the early Cold War period, as propaganda about Western heartlessness and cruelty - they even left much of the rubble from 1945 untouched in order to illustrate their case.

[Mike7777777]

Churchill's failure to support Harris post-Dresden was unforgivable. Harris was a single-minded fighting man with one objective: destroy Germany, Churchill was a career politician. But what a politician Harris could have been!

Although dealt with ad infinitum in previous_PPrune, the usual myths still reappear. With no wish to enter into debates to cover old ground:

I) Primary purpose of the raids on Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki was to demonstrate Western air power to the Soviets. Military significance was immaterial.

2) Re: the war on the Eastern Front, the Red Army needed no assistance from the West to stop the Wehrmacht at Moscow, minimal assistance provided by the West prior to victory at Stalingrad. If Britain fell in 1940 then the Red Army still rolls into Berlin, perhaps 1947, and then onto Calais. Why? A clue: in 1942, T34 tank production was c12,000, total German tank production c6,000.

Perhaps the greatest achievement of Bomber Command during 1939 - 1945 was to ensure that the Red Army advanced no further after May 1945?

There are two golden rules for aspiring European dictators: avoid a war on two fronts, don't invade Russia (copyright N. Bonaparte)

[cuefaye]

Most of our leading politicians, some of them children of the CND, are barely old enough to have understood the Cold War; certainly not old enough to have been dismayed by news of the crushing of the Prague
Spring.

So very telling. They seem to have skipped a generation or three. I hope that their Eton successors are a wiser lot, for the sake of my great-grandchildren!

[Genstabler]

Mike7777777

Your golden rules are similar to those taught to Army officers who aspire to high rank, but there are three:
1. Avoid war on two fronts.
2. Never invade Russia.
3. On no account ever entrust your baggage to RAF movers.

[DC10RealMan]

I have been to Dresden "The Florence on the Elbe" and one of the few cities in the world that truly lives up to its reputation and I have also attended a Handel concert in the Frauenkirche.

I have also helped to recover the remains of Soviet soldiers in the fields outside the city of Stalingrad (Volgograd) on a number of occasions recently and I have stood on the banks of the River Volga to which the German Army pushed the Red Army to within 100 meters and looked across to the eastern bank which geographically is part of Asia.

At one time the Nazis held an empire which spanned from Brittany to the gates of Asia.

Dresden was one of three cities earmarked for destruction together with Chemnitz and Berlin as part of Operation Thunderclap to help the Red Army in its offensive to capture Berlin and at the direct request of the Soviet High Command and with the approval of Marshal Stalin.

[Chugalug2]

Beagle, the preoccupation in 1945 was to end the war ASAP. Every day that murderous Nazi clique was in power was a day in which many more of all nationalities and races (especially the Jews) were to face violent and ignominious ends. Also by then the city smashing machine that was Main Force was honed to maximum effectiveness. Throw into that maelstrom the almost perfect conditions in terms of a disorganised and disrupted Air Defence system and you end up with the terrible cost to Dresden and those within it that you describe. To be honest wringing ones hands over the destruction of a particular building, albeit a historical and sacred one, shows a lofty disregard for all who perished there and elsewhere on all sides and throughout the world in that appalling conflict. 100 million in round figures i believe, so we concentrate on the fate uf three cities, two in Japan and one in Germany? Hogwash!
Fight to win and win as soon as possible. oh and all the rules that Genstabler listed.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, you may have a point about counter-force compared with counter-value, but I recall various targets that were supposedly counter-force, or would have been so claimed at the subsequent war-crimes trials in Rio or wherever. "The target it the HQ of the Western TVD," that the HQ was essentially an administrative centre, would have been vacated early in the conflict, and was the centre of a large city was brushed aside.

The problem with a counter-force strategy early in the war would have suffered from two main drawbacks - lack of assets to effect that strategy and lack of target concentration to deliver the blow.

Attacks on German naval units - Tirpitz and the submarine pens, on the rocket launch sites and Peenemunde - were all counter-force. Attacks on oil production and ball-bearing production were 'panacea' targets. Attacks on viaducts and the railway system were valid interdiction targets.

Harris would, I suggest, have asserted that attacks on cities in the Ruhr were indeed counter-force with attacks on Berlin, Hamburg and Dresden similarly attributed much as we would have claimed for Leningrad, Moscow and Kiev.

In the other direction London and Lincoln could have been claimed as counter-force, or collateral damage whereas Birmingham was your atypical counter-value target.

[Krautwald]

I always wondered if it is true that many raids where not aimed against factories, harbours, train stations, bridges or whatever important stuff, but deliberately against densely populated working-class neighborhoods? I have been told so a couple times but never bothered to find out if this actually was so.

I also think that one has to differ between guilt in terms of inexcuseable decisions, and the kind of guilt you experience when you where in a hopeless situation and had to do something awful. Even if there where reasons for doing things in a certain way, it doesn´t mean that you will be unaffected knowing that you killed hundreds of people, most of them being old, women, children...however, that is something you should leave to the people involved. It is not for later generations to judge here.

Then there are those (sadly increasing in numbers) liberals who shout the loudest and hide under the umbrella of political correctness, gay rights, equality and diversity agendas etc.. who I personally think have done more damage to this country than Hitler ever could

Well, I guess Hitler would have dealt with gays, pc and liberals to your full satisfaction.

[DC10RealMan]

You have to remember that specific targeting of buildings, bridges, etc, is a relatively recent technological development and certainly not the norm in the 1940s.

In 1942 Mr Butt, a senior civil servant published a report that said 90% of bombs dropped by RAF Bomber Command on raids in Germany were being dropped in excess of 5 miles from a specific aiming point.

There were special raids such as Augsburg, Le Crusot, Dams Raid, Peenemunde that were able to pinpoint targets but these were the exception rather than the rule, for example Augsburg was in daylight and the Dams Raid in full moonlight with attendant high losses.

Many areas of industrial plant were in working class areas such as the Hamburg U-boat pens but there was part of the bombing directive issued to C in C Harris which said that the bombing offensives was also directed "At the morale of the industrial workers"