Bomber Harris Interview on TV (merged - AGAIN!)
DC10RM:-
That is the nub of the issue. Bomber Command attacked at night to avoid the suicidal loss rate of when they attacked by day. The only targets that could be predictably hit by night were cities. Each Navigator had to find that city himself, there was little or no sign of the hundreds of other aircraft bent on doing the same thing. Distractions such as cloud cover, winds contrary to expected, flak, night fighters, dummy fires laid in open countryside, and above all inexperience, reduced the chances of even doing that. Air superiority was at the core of the problem, the USAAF achieved it locally with the amazing Mustang. Bomber Command had to wait for the final months of the war to do so in the Reich skies. Harris hit cities because he could, and like any good commander put fire into the bellies of his Old Lags before sending them out night after night. There were indeed other targets such have been mentioned like Peenemunde that could be equally hit, but then the activities carried out in such places were dispersed (underground in that case). The only targets that could be hit systematically, continually, and effectively were cities that contained their own sub targets, railways, factories, and of course workers. The mayhem caused to the Nazi conduct of the war was immense and telling, testimony of which was given by that suave War Criminal, Albert Speer, Hitler's Minister of Armaments and War Production 1942/45.
In 1942 Mr Butt, a senior civil servant published a report that said 90% of bombs dropped by RAF Bomber Command on raids in Germany were being dropped in excess of 5 miles from a specific aiming point.
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As DC10 showed us,
In 1942 Mr Butt, a senior civil servant published a report that said 90% of bombs dropped by RAF Bomber Command on raids in Germany were being dropped in excess of 5 miles from a specific aiming point.
Target recognition at night would be pretty much hit and miss too depending much on water features and railway lines as an aid to navigation. The Germans were well aware of this and attempted concealment much as we did with Starfish. You can see this on Google Earth historic imagery where the Alstervergnugen was covered over and a false road and rail crossing constructed further north by 600 yards. Not very much perhaps but sufficient to shift the aim away from the city centre.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 20th Feb 2013 at 20:05.
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How was it the Germans managed to find out cities like Coventry, Southampton,Belfast,Bath etc etc at night whilst we were bombing 5 miles off target for first few years of the war?
How was it the Germans managed to find out cities like Coventry, Southampton,Belfast,Bath etc etc at night whilst we were bombing 5 miles off target for first few years of the war?
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The Luftwaffe had navigational transmitters (Knickerbein or crooked leg) located in the Cherbourg Peninsula and Holland which provided navigation signals to most cities in England although the raids on Belfast were helped by navigational assistance in the form of city lighting from the neutral Irish Free State.
In the wake of the Butt Report, navigation was given the highest priority hence the development of radio aids such as Oboe which was accurate enough to be used against individual targets at night such as the raid in 1943 which destroyed much of the Krupp armaments factory in Essen, however Oboe was limited by the curvature of the earth and that is why the Oboe receivers were installed in the higher flying DH Mosquitoes which were armed with flares to mark the aiming point. Oboe had this limitation until summer 1944 when the Western Allies liberated France, Belgium, and Holland and then the Oboe transmitters could provide greater coverage to the East by being situated in those liberated countries.
In my opinion one further thing which is not appreciated by armchair critics of the Bomber campaign in the safety and security of the 21st Century is that the First World War had only been over 20 years before the start of the Second World War.
Most of the RAF Senior Officers, including Harris and Prime Minister Churchill himself had served in the trenches during that murderous conflict and who can blame them for trying new ways of fighting a war and avoiding the horrors and carnage that they had seen in the mud and blood of Flanders and France during the First World War.
In the wake of the Butt Report, navigation was given the highest priority hence the development of radio aids such as Oboe which was accurate enough to be used against individual targets at night such as the raid in 1943 which destroyed much of the Krupp armaments factory in Essen, however Oboe was limited by the curvature of the earth and that is why the Oboe receivers were installed in the higher flying DH Mosquitoes which were armed with flares to mark the aiming point. Oboe had this limitation until summer 1944 when the Western Allies liberated France, Belgium, and Holland and then the Oboe transmitters could provide greater coverage to the East by being situated in those liberated countries.
In my opinion one further thing which is not appreciated by armchair critics of the Bomber campaign in the safety and security of the 21st Century is that the First World War had only been over 20 years before the start of the Second World War.
Most of the RAF Senior Officers, including Harris and Prime Minister Churchill himself had served in the trenches during that murderous conflict and who can blame them for trying new ways of fighting a war and avoiding the horrors and carnage that they had seen in the mud and blood of Flanders and France during the First World War.
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 20th Feb 2013 at 18:10.
Some excellent posts here; DC10, PN, Chug et al. Not entirely sure about the comment:
but I do take your point in that we're not actually fighting for the nation's survival at the moment.
More good stuff, please. The memory of the Bomber Command crews needs to be defended.
the safety and security of the 21st Century
More good stuff, please. The memory of the Bomber Command crews needs to be defended.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 20th Feb 2013 at 18:28.
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RV Jones
good explanations about finding targets in RV Jones book on secret scientific Intel during ww2. How the germans hit Coventry and how we employed countermeasures.
RV Jones was quite a chap.
I had the job of writing the names neatly in the EWAU visitors book for signatures in the 80's and 90's. RVs signature was in the book as he was a regular visitor.
He is one of the people I wish I had met along with Sir Frank Whittle.
Harris and his men were right to do what they did. Had they not done I am sure we would all be speaking German today.
Imagine what it would have been like had they been allowed to develop canned sunshine
RV Jones was quite a chap.
I had the job of writing the names neatly in the EWAU visitors book for signatures in the 80's and 90's. RVs signature was in the book as he was a regular visitor.
He is one of the people I wish I had met along with Sir Frank Whittle.
Harris and his men were right to do what they did. Had they not done I am sure we would all be speaking German today.
Imagine what it would have been like had they been allowed to develop canned sunshine
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I had a little play with the maths. A Lancaster at a height of 20,000 feet en route to Hamburg would lose a G-signal from Stenigot around coast in of Holland. A Mosquito at 30,000 feet gained a further 39 miles and would lose the signal near Groningen. To get a G-line you need a signal from two stations and for a fix, 3 stations. The Dutch coast would be the absolute maximum distance.
From the Dutch coast the shortest distance would be another 156 miles for the Lancaster or around 40 minutes. If we assume a DR error of 10 nm/hr, plus an error of 2 miles on the last fix, you have an error of 8-9 miles. That can be reduced by getting a pinpoint but that would still have an error of 2 miles assuming an accurate identification.
Wind finding was pretty primitive until the advent of Doppler or a high definition radar system.
The advent of H2S would have been of huge benefit, once they were permitted to use radar over Germany. By 1944, 35 Sqn (a pathfinder sqn) F540 recorded bombing errors in the order of 400 yards. It took time to get things together.
From the Dutch coast the shortest distance would be another 156 miles for the Lancaster or around 40 minutes. If we assume a DR error of 10 nm/hr, plus an error of 2 miles on the last fix, you have an error of 8-9 miles. That can be reduced by getting a pinpoint but that would still have an error of 2 miles assuming an accurate identification.
Wind finding was pretty primitive until the advent of Doppler or a high definition radar system.
The advent of H2S would have been of huge benefit, once they were permitted to use radar over Germany. By 1944, 35 Sqn (a pathfinder sqn) F540 recorded bombing errors in the order of 400 yards. It took time to get things together.
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I understand that the use of H2S had its own problems.
The clear delineation of coastline was easily identifiable, however over a landmass the earlier versions couldn't identify specific features to be used as a navigational aid.
Its main drawback though was that after a few weeks of use the Luftwaffe discovered its secrets in the shot down wreck of a Shorts Stirling and developed a radio aid called Naxos which they fitted to the Luftwaffe nightfighters and which homed into the transmissions of H2S resulting in increased causalities.
I once had a friend who flew a tour with RAF Bomber Command in 1943-1944 and survived, he put down his survival to the fact that they didn't have H2S fitted to their aircraft.
He also mentioned about being approached by Group Captain Hamish Mahaddie at the end of his first tour in the winter of 1943 when the casualties were at their worse. The Group Captain wanted his crew to go and undertake an immediate second tour with the Pathfinders as their operational experience was invaluable and they would receive a Pathfinder badge which would impress the girls and an "extra bob a day"
His crew barely out of their teens were all for it and the kudos it would bring, but my friend who was the old man of the crew at 25 and married with children suggested that they take the weeks leave due to them and think it over and it was never mentioned again.
He went onto say that had they accepted an immediate second tour, including the "extra bob" that they never would have survived such was the casualty rate during the Battle of Berlin in the winter of 1943-1944.
When I think of the boys of RAF Bomber Command I am reminded of the words of the American General Patton who said,
"Do not mourn these men, but just thank God that such men lived"
The clear delineation of coastline was easily identifiable, however over a landmass the earlier versions couldn't identify specific features to be used as a navigational aid.
Its main drawback though was that after a few weeks of use the Luftwaffe discovered its secrets in the shot down wreck of a Shorts Stirling and developed a radio aid called Naxos which they fitted to the Luftwaffe nightfighters and which homed into the transmissions of H2S resulting in increased causalities.
I once had a friend who flew a tour with RAF Bomber Command in 1943-1944 and survived, he put down his survival to the fact that they didn't have H2S fitted to their aircraft.
He also mentioned about being approached by Group Captain Hamish Mahaddie at the end of his first tour in the winter of 1943 when the casualties were at their worse. The Group Captain wanted his crew to go and undertake an immediate second tour with the Pathfinders as their operational experience was invaluable and they would receive a Pathfinder badge which would impress the girls and an "extra bob a day"
His crew barely out of their teens were all for it and the kudos it would bring, but my friend who was the old man of the crew at 25 and married with children suggested that they take the weeks leave due to them and think it over and it was never mentioned again.
He went onto say that had they accepted an immediate second tour, including the "extra bob" that they never would have survived such was the casualty rate during the Battle of Berlin in the winter of 1943-1944.
When I think of the boys of RAF Bomber Command I am reminded of the words of the American General Patton who said,
"Do not mourn these men, but just thank God that such men lived"
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 20th Feb 2013 at 22:50.
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I remember watching a documentary, possibly from the old "The World at War" series in which Albert Speer, architect and German Minister of Armaments, was asked questions regarding the Allied bombing campaign. In his opinion the Allies had virtually opened up a new front requiring tens of thousands of people to man and support their air defence system not to mention the resources and materials that had to be committed that otherwise could have been employed against the Soviets. Also, by 1944 the Luftwaffe had virtually ended large scale involvement in the ground war with seniors such as Adolf Galland loathe to commit to anything that would detract from the air defence of Germany.
I'm not suggesting that all Germans are applauding our brilliant coup but sometimes the opinions of a one-time enemy can cut through all the political correctness, though
I've not seen the recent documentary so perhaps I'm doing the BBC a huge injustice?
I'm not suggesting that all Germans are applauding our brilliant coup but sometimes the opinions of a one-time enemy can cut through all the political correctness, though
I've not seen the recent documentary so perhaps I'm doing the BBC a huge injustice?
Last edited by Caspian237; 20th Feb 2013 at 22:51.
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In 1942 when the Nazis were rampaging across the Soviet Union and Marshal Stalin was clamoring for an invasion of France by the Western Allies to relieve the hard pressed Red Army Prime Minister Churchill placated him by saying that a second front had already been opened in the West by the RAF and USAAF air offensive.
I wonder if that statement encouraged the USSR to fight on as it had been feared that they might make a separate peace due to the rapid advance of the Wehrmacht.
Today if you drive from Moscow/DOM airport into the city centre you will pass a line of huge red steel tank traps in the middle of the highway and they mark the high water mark of the Wehrmachts advance.
Caspian, you are absolutely correct in your recollections of Speers comments.
I wonder if that statement encouraged the USSR to fight on as it had been feared that they might make a separate peace due to the rapid advance of the Wehrmacht.
Today if you drive from Moscow/DOM airport into the city centre you will pass a line of huge red steel tank traps in the middle of the highway and they mark the high water mark of the Wehrmachts advance.
Caspian, you are absolutely correct in your recollections of Speers comments.
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 20th Feb 2013 at 23:28.
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While one cannot argue against majority of bombing runs over Germany and Japan, we also have to remember the instances where these bombings were pure savagery without any strategic value (Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki etc). It is easy to get carried away by oversimplifying to whole situation.
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Cowhorse, that is the nub of the argument and has already been covered and recovered.
Dresden was or wasn't a major transport hub with many troops in he city that night.
The atomic attacks were or weren't necessary and saved or didn't save lives or ended or didn't end the war.
You are either open to argument and logic or you hold an entrenched 21st Century position.
Vote now.
Dresden was or wasn't a major transport hub with many troops in he city that night.
The atomic attacks were or weren't necessary and saved or didn't save lives or ended or didn't end the war.
You are either open to argument and logic or you hold an entrenched 21st Century position.
Vote now.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
At high level we had Fishpool, not particularly effective but worth a try once you were engaged.
During the war, did the young and inexperienced limit their use of H2S? Did they use Fishpond the whole time looking for that elusive and fleeting contact like a shooting star amongst the fixed returns from the bomber stream?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Was there ever a realistic prospect of a separate peace? True the Soviet had done just that in 1917. In WW2 Germany had only just attack Russia in 1941 having abrogated their previous Pact. In 1942 Germany was winning both in Russia and North Africa, why would they accept a separate peace except on such impossible terms that Stalin could never have accepted.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Cowhorse, I made neither a critical assessment nor put patriotism first. I posed simply the questions.
OTOH your statement
That may well be a good opening gambit for a debate but is invalid as a conclusion without debate.
OTOH your statement
we also have to remember the instances where these bombings were pure savagery without any strategic value
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Cowhorse, I made neither a critical assessment nor put patriotism first. I posed simply the questions.
If we want to learn anything, we have to clean our house thoroughly: was the intention of Bomber command to hinder German industry and military apparatus (in which case there were many targets more appropriate than Dresden), or were they simply trying their hands on burning a densely populated city (like Germans during the Blitz)?