Red Arrows for the Chop?
As much as the Arrows have been a part of the furniture for 45 odd years, I'm not sure theres sufficient an airshow industry left to support a full time team, let alone one flying out of date a/c that can't be seen as an industry promotion any longer.
In a much reduced RAF and with the demise of the USAFE base shows and even all but one RAF Battle of Britain at Home show, in my view you be better off axing the Arrows and reverting back to the old days of sharing it around the front line sqns as back in the early sixties.
A part time 4/5-ship Tiffie display worked up for just the remaining handful of big UK displays and the odd overseas display would be something new for the public and allow industry sponsorship possibly because of possible Tiffie sales pitch.
Rotate the team through the front line sqns each year, with some nice painted tails etc for a bit of bling, like the old Lightning Firebirds and Blue Diamonds schemes.
In a much reduced RAF and with the demise of the USAFE base shows and even all but one RAF Battle of Britain at Home show, in my view you be better off axing the Arrows and reverting back to the old days of sharing it around the front line sqns as back in the early sixties.
A part time 4/5-ship Tiffie display worked up for just the remaining handful of big UK displays and the odd overseas display would be something new for the public and allow industry sponsorship possibly because of possible Tiffie sales pitch.
Rotate the team through the front line sqns each year, with some nice painted tails etc for a bit of bling, like the old Lightning Firebirds and Blue Diamonds schemes.
Last edited by GeeRam; 2nd Feb 2013 at 20:42.
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I think you'd find it hard to justify aircraft hours and fuel burn for a Typhoon team. I think your idea has legs if a training unit could do something with the Hawk though - a fourship perhaps?
One thing's for sure though, once they've gone - they've gone - so defensible or not I for one am glad the reds are still knocking about.
One thing's for sure though, once they've gone - they've gone - so defensible or not I for one am glad the reds are still knocking about.
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It may not be the aircraft or the cost of fuel etc that's the driver in this case, it's the aircrew! Guess what? After SDSR the RAF is short of aircrew, esp fast jet pilots. There are front line and a lot of instructional posts that cannot be filled at the moment with potentially 10 'spare' aircrew based at Scampton.
"Guess what? After SDSR the RAF is short of aircrew, esp fast jet pilots. There are front line and a lot of instructional posts that cannot be filled at the moment...."
How do you obtain replacements? Trawl amongst the QFI world - oh, hang on, that's virtually collapsed now. Train more pilots? Well, first you need to find the non-existent QFIs, then wait for about 3 years until the ab initios make it from RAFC to the front line....
A bit like closing aerodromes. It might be an easy short term cost saving to further some multi-starred air wheel's chances of 'the third and the K', but becomes incredibly expensive when some dumb decision of the past has to be reversed and the aerodrome re-opened.
Why does today's RAF remind me so much of this:
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"Guess what? After SDSR the RAF is short of aircrew, esp fast jet pilots.
I know of several FJ guys who can't find a seat right now and are stuck in desk jobs whilst the stream sorts itself out post-SDSR and Harrier's demise.
My personal view is that the "10 spare" aircrew wouldn't make any difference in the wider scheme of things.
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This is one of thsoe stories that "leaks" just before any cut-backs
The RAF will offer up the Red Arrows knowing it's not something any politician wants to cut - when they are saved its "Well Minister of course we need more cash as You stopped us from making savings"
oldest trick in the Sir Humphrey Appleby Book of Sensible Government
The RAF will offer up the Red Arrows knowing it's not something any politician wants to cut - when they are saved its "Well Minister of course we need more cash as You stopped us from making savings"
oldest trick in the Sir Humphrey Appleby Book of Sensible Government
Orca,
Sorry I missed your question yesterday, but it seems to have been answered by the FOI post. I think the point is that it is, in my view, not that much in the big scheme of things. Compare that with cost of trying to do it with a number of Typhoons (and that's ignoring the incredible waste of front line assets) and it really has been a drop in the ocean.
To be honest, the bigger problem was (and I'm not having a dig here) that the team became dominated by Harrier pilots at a time when that force was getting a bit short - a relatively small force constantly tapped for pilots to go to RAFAT, CFS, etc. There was a lot of resistance to use more pilots from other forces; I was once told by one of the brethren that "If you start using Tornado pilots, you'll start having a lot of crashes."
We also had a bit of a dearth of Hawks elsewhere, but RAFAT was deemed such an important asset that the other Hawk fleets were always tapped for a replacement jet whenever needed - no matter how congested the training pipeline had become.
The one thing we could never measure was the effect on recruiting (not such a big deal at the moment) and (bigger) public image. No one can reasonably deny that the PR effect is huge - interestingly for all three services, not just the RAF.
My point is that money wasn't really the kicker - probably isn't the be-all etc of the argument now. But the team was a sacred cow to the chiefs so was repeatedly preserved.
Have things changed so much? I wouldn't think so, but we live in strange times. If it all goes wrong, we can always start a "Decision to axe the Arrows was Bonkers" thread and keep feeding it for the next 10 years.
Sorry I missed your question yesterday, but it seems to have been answered by the FOI post. I think the point is that it is, in my view, not that much in the big scheme of things. Compare that with cost of trying to do it with a number of Typhoons (and that's ignoring the incredible waste of front line assets) and it really has been a drop in the ocean.
To be honest, the bigger problem was (and I'm not having a dig here) that the team became dominated by Harrier pilots at a time when that force was getting a bit short - a relatively small force constantly tapped for pilots to go to RAFAT, CFS, etc. There was a lot of resistance to use more pilots from other forces; I was once told by one of the brethren that "If you start using Tornado pilots, you'll start having a lot of crashes."
We also had a bit of a dearth of Hawks elsewhere, but RAFAT was deemed such an important asset that the other Hawk fleets were always tapped for a replacement jet whenever needed - no matter how congested the training pipeline had become.
The one thing we could never measure was the effect on recruiting (not such a big deal at the moment) and (bigger) public image. No one can reasonably deny that the PR effect is huge - interestingly for all three services, not just the RAF.
My point is that money wasn't really the kicker - probably isn't the be-all etc of the argument now. But the team was a sacred cow to the chiefs so was repeatedly preserved.
Have things changed so much? I wouldn't think so, but we live in strange times. If it all goes wrong, we can always start a "Decision to axe the Arrows was Bonkers" thread and keep feeding it for the next 10 years.
Courtney
Wise words, old chum. However, money is tight and I personally don't believe the Reds meet the required 'value for money' mantra anymore. During my time on BBMF it always was a source of amusement that we were 1/3rd the cost and serviced over 3 times as many airshows, families'/at-home days, fetes, etc... In terms of "PR bang for Buck" the BBMF wins hands down (and I choose those words carefully as a FJ mate).
There must be a cheaper way to do what the Reds do and if it could be made more cost effective then I suspect the axe-sharpening would not take place every year. How about moving them to Leeming to blob up with the Tatty Ton? Or moving the Tatty Ton to Scampton and shutting Leeming's runway? Or something else? There has to be a way to make this cheaper (save for buying them some Cessna Aerobats equipped with smoke cannisters!
). The idea of moving to Waddington was madness as it is rammed and thus needed a new-build HQ (and we all know that DIO get ripped off by their Regional Prime Contractors by at least 40% over the market rate!).
Here's a really 'off the wall' solution - why not put the Blades on contract to do something with some cheaper jest like L39s?
I also believe that BEagle's JENGA simale works as well. We are at crtitical mass in certain areas, although the use of FTRS QFIs or Sponsored Reserves under MFTS could plug the gap for a while to come. It's also cheaper, too.
LJ
Wise words, old chum. However, money is tight and I personally don't believe the Reds meet the required 'value for money' mantra anymore. During my time on BBMF it always was a source of amusement that we were 1/3rd the cost and serviced over 3 times as many airshows, families'/at-home days, fetes, etc... In terms of "PR bang for Buck" the BBMF wins hands down (and I choose those words carefully as a FJ mate).
There must be a cheaper way to do what the Reds do and if it could be made more cost effective then I suspect the axe-sharpening would not take place every year. How about moving them to Leeming to blob up with the Tatty Ton? Or moving the Tatty Ton to Scampton and shutting Leeming's runway? Or something else? There has to be a way to make this cheaper (save for buying them some Cessna Aerobats equipped with smoke cannisters!
). The idea of moving to Waddington was madness as it is rammed and thus needed a new-build HQ (and we all know that DIO get ripped off by their Regional Prime Contractors by at least 40% over the market rate!).Here's a really 'off the wall' solution - why not put the Blades on contract to do something with some cheaper jest like L39s?
I also believe that BEagle's JENGA simale works as well. We are at crtitical mass in certain areas, although the use of FTRS QFIs or Sponsored Reserves under MFTS could plug the gap for a while to come. It's also cheaper, too.
LJ
We are at crtitical mass in certain areas, although the use of FTRS QFIs or Sponsored Reserves under MFTS could plug the gap for a while to come. It's also cheaper, too.
A process needs to be sustainable. Using FTRS and SR mercenaries is not - whence cometh the next generation?
BEags
I agree, but it would give us time to come up with the "sustainable plan". In future, if we retained the majority of those that used to go to the airlines in FTRS/SR jobs instead, then it might just work? If they got rid of the stupid pension abatement rules, I'm sure it would attract others?
Just like the Reds, we need to think of better ways of doing things.
LJ
I agree, but it would give us time to come up with the "sustainable plan". In future, if we retained the majority of those that used to go to the airlines in FTRS/SR jobs instead, then it might just work? If they got rid of the stupid pension abatement rules, I'm sure it would attract others?
Just like the Reds, we need to think of better ways of doing things.
LJ
Beagle,
Spot on. The plugging of gaps by FTRS only keeps you going for so long - enough for a couple of tour lengths (to enable the upwardly mobile to move on and up by delivering more for less....) but it cannot be self sustaining. It bites you down the line when the training providers can't recruit a plentiful supply of QFI/QHI types so salaries increase and guess who pays for that eventually......
Spot on. The plugging of gaps by FTRS only keeps you going for so long - enough for a couple of tour lengths (to enable the upwardly mobile to move on and up by delivering more for less....) but it cannot be self sustaining. It bites you down the line when the training providers can't recruit a plentiful supply of QFI/QHI types so salaries increase and guess who pays for that eventually......
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This is a very emotive topic. The simple question is, when money is so tight, why should the RAF keep the Reds? Well, here are the views of a Pongo.
Their costs seem to be the main argument for axing them. However, even in the current financial situation, the £6 million or so a year including personnel costs, quoted by HQ Air Command a couple of years ago as the annual budget for RAFAT, is a drop in the ocean. They attract considerable commercial sponsorship and public event organisers are happy to pay the going rate to attract them. Axing the Reds would make no noticeable difference to the MoD’s liquidity or effectiveness in the short term and would certainly bring no longer term financial benefit for the RAF.
So do the Reds provide value for money to the RAF? From reading the posts on PPRuNe, one must regrettably conclude that many Crabs think that they don’t. Why do they express that view? There are certainly some posters who have a chip on their shoulder and do so from envy and a dislike of a perceived elitism in the Red Arrows. Their views are irrelevant. Many more balanced posters find it impossible to justify spending scarce bucks in times of conflict on things that don’t actually go bang. Their views are valid and worth considering. What is the Reds’ PR value to the RAF? Probaly considerable, but does that translate into value for money? Impossible to quantify. What is their recruiting value to the RAF? Probably significant, especially to those interested in a flying career, but difficult to quantify and certainly not critical. Are there any other benefits to the RAF, such as encouraging professionalism, pushing boundaries etc? Probably to some degree but unlikely to be significant.
So do the Reds provide value for money to the country? This is actually the key question. The Reds had an unusually high profile nationally last year following the two tragic fatal accidents and with the Jubilee celebrations and the Olympics. No one who watched the spontaneous reaction of the public to the immaculately flown and timed, noisy and colourful flypasts by the Team thoughout the UK can doubt the huge esteem and affection they are held in. The displays flown at airshows were almost of secondary significance in their impact for the public.
That is the real significance of the Team. The RAF operate them but do not really own them. The Red Arrows are a national asset. They are loved, admired, held in reverance by, bring pride and pleasure to millions of our countrymen and at a time when we do not seem to have a lot to be proud of. That is real value. They are also enjoyed and admired by millions of foreigners whose perception and opinion of our nation’s qualities is thereby enhanced. That is of incalculable value.
As I have already said, I am a Pongo and an old and crusty one at that. But I have followed, loved, admired, enjoyed and envied the Reds for most of my adult life. I am sure that the public believe they are worth keeping. To hell with the bean-counters. It is not within the remit of their Airships to axe them. I hope that our publicity aware political leaders realise that.
Their costs seem to be the main argument for axing them. However, even in the current financial situation, the £6 million or so a year including personnel costs, quoted by HQ Air Command a couple of years ago as the annual budget for RAFAT, is a drop in the ocean. They attract considerable commercial sponsorship and public event organisers are happy to pay the going rate to attract them. Axing the Reds would make no noticeable difference to the MoD’s liquidity or effectiveness in the short term and would certainly bring no longer term financial benefit for the RAF.
So do the Reds provide value for money to the RAF? From reading the posts on PPRuNe, one must regrettably conclude that many Crabs think that they don’t. Why do they express that view? There are certainly some posters who have a chip on their shoulder and do so from envy and a dislike of a perceived elitism in the Red Arrows. Their views are irrelevant. Many more balanced posters find it impossible to justify spending scarce bucks in times of conflict on things that don’t actually go bang. Their views are valid and worth considering. What is the Reds’ PR value to the RAF? Probaly considerable, but does that translate into value for money? Impossible to quantify. What is their recruiting value to the RAF? Probably significant, especially to those interested in a flying career, but difficult to quantify and certainly not critical. Are there any other benefits to the RAF, such as encouraging professionalism, pushing boundaries etc? Probably to some degree but unlikely to be significant.
So do the Reds provide value for money to the country? This is actually the key question. The Reds had an unusually high profile nationally last year following the two tragic fatal accidents and with the Jubilee celebrations and the Olympics. No one who watched the spontaneous reaction of the public to the immaculately flown and timed, noisy and colourful flypasts by the Team thoughout the UK can doubt the huge esteem and affection they are held in. The displays flown at airshows were almost of secondary significance in their impact for the public.
That is the real significance of the Team. The RAF operate them but do not really own them. The Red Arrows are a national asset. They are loved, admired, held in reverance by, bring pride and pleasure to millions of our countrymen and at a time when we do not seem to have a lot to be proud of. That is real value. They are also enjoyed and admired by millions of foreigners whose perception and opinion of our nation’s qualities is thereby enhanced. That is of incalculable value.
As I have already said, I am a Pongo and an old and crusty one at that. But I have followed, loved, admired, enjoyed and envied the Reds for most of my adult life. I am sure that the public believe they are worth keeping. To hell with the bean-counters. It is not within the remit of their Airships to axe them. I hope that our publicity aware political leaders realise that.
Gentleman Aviator
keep feeding it for the next 10 years.
Extremely well put Clockwork Mouse big impact for small bucks. The senior Teeterette (despite her upbringing, a very non-service brat) was in T-Square when the success of the London Olympic bid was announced, and 'phoned me with the news. I heard the Reds overfly, and said senior daughter was talking about it for weeks - despite the overshadowing tragedy of the following day ....
Just putting it out there, but why don't we recomission the Might SHAR to do the job for us - that way we'd not only have 'new' planes, but we might, for once, shut WEBF up
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A sense of humour can be a dangerous thing, David Cameron learned after teasing hacks on board his plane during his North Africa tour.
Rebuking one paper for claiming the SAS faced the chop, he said: ‘It’s total rot. I suppose tomorrow there’ll be a headline Red Arrows To Be Scrapped and the day after, Trooping The Colour Abandoned.’
Sure enough, when he landed in the UK yesterday, one front page screamed: Red Arrows Face Axe. Sighed Dave: ‘I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.’
Read more: Dave sees red at Arrows 'axe' | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Rebuking one paper for claiming the SAS faced the chop, he said: ‘It’s total rot. I suppose tomorrow there’ll be a headline Red Arrows To Be Scrapped and the day after, Trooping The Colour Abandoned.’
Sure enough, when he landed in the UK yesterday, one front page screamed: Red Arrows Face Axe. Sighed Dave: ‘I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.’
Read more: Dave sees red at Arrows 'axe' | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook