Red Arrows for the Chop?
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Not wearing G suits or masks is frankly irresponsible. There have been several fatal accidents in jet display teams due to G forces within memory. With the G the BAs pull the risk is not worth taking for the sake of bull****.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 45 yards from a tropical beach
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Having instructed on jets, both with and without 'g' suits (Macchi with, Jet Provost without) I reckon that the major difference is not so much in 'g' tolerance, but in how knackered you are after two or three high 'g' trips in a day.
Either way, it's amazing how quickly one recovered after some hop enhanced rehydration!
Either way, it's amazing how quickly one recovered after some hop enhanced rehydration!
The question was why (or why not) O2 masks. Both sides of the argument have been expressed, same with g-pants. I'm absolutely sure the Blues have aleady thought of anything we have to offer. So it is, now, their choice. Their job is to look good and professional - not to other aviators, but to the public. And their act is top notch.
Safety wise, they are taking a risk. But they are US Navy aviators. And they are flying their flag brilliantly.
I stand by my safety aspects of wearing a mask. I respect their reasons for nor not so doing.
Anyway, what was the point of all that teeth whitening if no one ever sees it?
Safety wise, they are taking a risk. But they are US Navy aviators. And they are flying their flag brilliantly.
I stand by my safety aspects of wearing a mask. I respect their reasons for nor not so doing.
Anyway, what was the point of all that teeth whitening if no one ever sees it?
They have to look good for the Girls....and errrr....the Guys now don't they?
OK465,
Is it fair to summarise that argument as "small risks are not worth bothering with if there are big, unavoidable risks present"? That goes against a foundation principle of risk management, which is to eliminate risk wherever it is reasonably practicable to do so. It is not reasonably practicable to stop an aerobatic display team from pointing at the ground or at each other from time to time - but there are a whole host of mitigations in place for that, not least training and supervision.
Perhaps the easiest test to apply is the good old CNN test. A Blue Angel has crashed and the pilot is dead. The investigation has been published and a senior naval officer is taking questions at a press conference:
It wouldn't pass the test, would it? Heads would roll.
Mucking about at 500k, at times hurtling straight at the earth and at times directly toward each other for effect, occasionally even impacting one or the other....
and not wearing a mask is.....risky?
and not wearing a mask is.....risky?
Perhaps the easiest test to apply is the good old CNN test. A Blue Angel has crashed and the pilot is dead. The investigation has been published and a senior naval officer is taking questions at a press conference:
Journalist: So this aircraft hit a seagull, which entered the cockpit, hit the pilot in the face and incapacitated him. Why was he not wearing a mask?
Admiral: Because viewers would not have been able to see his face on the big screens.*
* my supposition.
Admiral: Because viewers would not have been able to see his face on the big screens.*
* my supposition.
Last edited by Easy Street; 9th Feb 2013 at 21:05.
ES,
Let me get this straight....you are saying after a Sea Gull flying at 500 knots hits the windscreen of Handsome Young Blue's F-18, some Admiral is going to look silly explaining why HYB was not wearing an O2 Mask?
Just how much protection does an O2 mask really provide when something strong enough to pierce the Windscreen of an F-18 at 500 KT's comes smashing into the Pilots lower face?
Let me get this straight....you are saying after a Sea Gull flying at 500 knots hits the windscreen of Handsome Young Blue's F-18, some Admiral is going to look silly explaining why HYB was not wearing an O2 Mask?
Just how much protection does an O2 mask really provide when something strong enough to pierce the Windscreen of an F-18 at 500 KT's comes smashing into the Pilots lower face?
"Anyway, what was the point of all that teeth whitening if no one ever sees it?"
Love it!
.....BTW the Reds were the driving force behind the procurement of "prestige" Flying suits now worn by anyone & everyone...
Much easier to roll up the sleeves on..& not just for cocktail parties....
Love it!
.....BTW the Reds were the driving force behind the procurement of "prestige" Flying suits now worn by anyone & everyone...
Much easier to roll up the sleeves on..& not just for cocktail parties....
Just how much protection does an O2 mask really provide when something strong enough to pierce the Windscreen of an F-18 at 500 KT's comes smashing into the Pilots lower face?
And until the late 80s the red suits were provided by a businessman who supported the Team, until in RAFSC Command Accounts we lobbied for them to be publically funded - eventually they were paid for from non-public funds until the argument was advanced that it was flight safety issue and the public finally coughed up. I am proud to have played a part in getting the "right" decision.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Sign of the times, and the expense of modern aircraft.....
Defense News: Swiss Outraged Over Plan To Cut Aerobatic Team
GENEVA — Many Swiss were outraged Wednesday after hearing that the country’s beloved aerobatic red planes with their characteristic white crosses, the Patrouille Suisse, will be cut from the Swiss air force by 2016.
“We will no longer have planes simply for folklore,” President Ueli Maurer told a parliamentary security policy commission meeting on Tuesday, according to the Basler Zeitung daily. The commission had been discussing Switzerland’s pending purchase of 22 JAS39 Gripen fighter jets from Sweden when a member reportedly asked about the future of the Patrouille Suisse, which have been a fixture in Swiss skies since1964.
The Swiss president, who is also the country’s defense minister and a member of the populist right Swiss People’s Party, told the gathering that as of 2016, the cherished aerobatic team would cease to exist. The revelation sparked outrage in Switzerland, with politicians leading the way.
“Maurer is underestimating the symbolic importance of the Patrouille Suisse,” Martin Landolt, head of the Conservative Democratic Party of Switzerland, told the 20Minuten.ch website. The head of the Christian Democratic Party, Christoph Darbellay, agreed and described the decision as “a provocation.”
A former pilot with the aerobatic team, also quoted by 20Minuten.ch, denounced the move, stressing that the Patrouille Suisse had never had an accident since its creation in 1964.
“The Patrouille is the best business card Switzerland has,” pilot John Huessy said, insisting, “It is unacceptable to say that what they do is about folklore.”
Defense News: Swiss Outraged Over Plan To Cut Aerobatic Team
GENEVA — Many Swiss were outraged Wednesday after hearing that the country’s beloved aerobatic red planes with their characteristic white crosses, the Patrouille Suisse, will be cut from the Swiss air force by 2016.
“We will no longer have planes simply for folklore,” President Ueli Maurer told a parliamentary security policy commission meeting on Tuesday, according to the Basler Zeitung daily. The commission had been discussing Switzerland’s pending purchase of 22 JAS39 Gripen fighter jets from Sweden when a member reportedly asked about the future of the Patrouille Suisse, which have been a fixture in Swiss skies since1964.
The Swiss president, who is also the country’s defense minister and a member of the populist right Swiss People’s Party, told the gathering that as of 2016, the cherished aerobatic team would cease to exist. The revelation sparked outrage in Switzerland, with politicians leading the way.
“Maurer is underestimating the symbolic importance of the Patrouille Suisse,” Martin Landolt, head of the Conservative Democratic Party of Switzerland, told the 20Minuten.ch website. The head of the Christian Democratic Party, Christoph Darbellay, agreed and described the decision as “a provocation.”
A former pilot with the aerobatic team, also quoted by 20Minuten.ch, denounced the move, stressing that the Patrouille Suisse had never had an accident since its creation in 1964.
“The Patrouille is the best business card Switzerland has,” pilot John Huessy said, insisting, “It is unacceptable to say that what they do is about folklore.”
Problem is, is anything can happen between now and 2016 still got 33 months for the Swiss. Or a miracle can happen and have the world's first Grippen display team. Who knows maybe Saab / BAe may sponsor them along with Breitling.
Speaking of which the Breitling team with their Aero L39 jets are still going strong (yes I know they're a private enterprise). Had the privilege of looking at their Blue Angels style paintwork copied jets on the static at le Bourget 2 years ago parked by the Lockheed Constellation.
Back to topic at hand - whats going down with the Reds, any more updates?
If all goes well then would we be looking at an all T2 equipped by 2015?
Cheers
Speaking of which the Breitling team with their Aero L39 jets are still going strong (yes I know they're a private enterprise). Had the privilege of looking at their Blue Angels style paintwork copied jets on the static at le Bourget 2 years ago parked by the Lockheed Constellation.
Back to topic at hand - whats going down with the Reds, any more updates?
If all goes well then would we be looking at an all T2 equipped by 2015?
Cheers
Slight thread drift LOL
I spent a very pleasant 3 weeks with the Swiss AF in 1986,out on the apron there were 2 Venoms parked...The 2 pilots about to strap in were chalk and cheese...one was a 'mature' gentleman (and he was a gentleman) - the other was a youngster !
Chatting to the 'mature' pilot - he was chuckling and saying ''only in the swiss AF could you start and finish your career on the same a/c''
One day there was a sound like a fast vacuum cleaner and (I think) 19 two seat Vampires did a stream landing...fantastic
Most of the aircrew came to look at the 2 Hawks parked on the apron and did not believe me when told that one of them had 1200 hours on the clock,ISTR that the highest time Vampire had (at that time ) just over 2000 hrs.
The moral of this story...The swiss do not fork about and really look after their a/c (the Hunters and F5s were immaculate) and yes most of the aircrew are part time ...you could tell by the way Swissair a/c were flown...the turns always seemed a little steeper than other airlines
The Hawk T1 is a tough little a/c...I love em
I spent a very pleasant 3 weeks with the Swiss AF in 1986,out on the apron there were 2 Venoms parked...The 2 pilots about to strap in were chalk and cheese...one was a 'mature' gentleman (and he was a gentleman) - the other was a youngster !
Chatting to the 'mature' pilot - he was chuckling and saying ''only in the swiss AF could you start and finish your career on the same a/c''
One day there was a sound like a fast vacuum cleaner and (I think) 19 two seat Vampires did a stream landing...fantastic
Most of the aircrew came to look at the 2 Hawks parked on the apron and did not believe me when told that one of them had 1200 hours on the clock,ISTR that the highest time Vampire had (at that time ) just over 2000 hrs.
The moral of this story...The swiss do not fork about and really look after their a/c (the Hunters and F5s were immaculate
) and yes most of the aircrew are part time ...you could tell by the way Swissair a/c were flown...the turns always seemed a little steeper than other airlines The Hawk T1 is a tough little a/c...I love em
Last edited by longer ron; 14th Feb 2013 at 21:25.
Originally Posted by Fox3
I think your picture just made it onto the Reds' dartboard, Courtney
. Actually, it was a genuine question; I seemed to recall that the PS team fly front line ac as well as their display aircraft.I'll bet I don't get invited to the Reds' Christmas party this year either. Come to think of it...