Red Arrows for the Chop?
Leon Jabachjabicz
I think you will find this is already being done
with the ATC Gliding Squadrons and AEFs (when the props aren't flying off
)
HF
If we want to look at PR, for £8M we could offer 6x 30 minute air experience flights in small aircraft like a Grob Vigilant (which can be operated at around £100/hr at most flying/gliding clubs) to every single one of our ~25,000 schools each [U]year[/U ]in the UK. Now how's that for PR?
with the ATC Gliding Squadrons and AEFs (when the props aren't flying off)HF
Oldgrubber, 815 Black Cats gone???
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Chopper,
My bad as the youngsters say, I saw them display and they were good.
I remember watching a German "Green Giant" type helicopter doing a fantastic display at Culdrose and my jaw hit the ground when a rather attractive young lady climbed out of the pilots seat, took off her helmet and did a "swish" with her hair as she walked in.
Cheers now
My bad as the youngsters say, I saw them display and they were good.
I remember watching a German "Green Giant" type helicopter doing a fantastic display at Culdrose and my jaw hit the ground when a rather attractive young lady climbed out of the pilots seat, took off her helmet and did a "swish" with her hair as she walked in.
Cheers now
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Quick thread drift -
There is no denying the superb effort and results obtained by the FRS1 in 1982, but......... how much was down to the platform and how much was down to the weapons and drivers?
Would they have achieved similar results in contemporary aircraft types or opposition types like Mirage III/V or A-4?
SHAR
1982
1435 sorties , 20 (+3) kills, 6 lost
Not bad for a "Maybe Fighter"
1982
1435 sorties , 20 (+3) kills, 6 lost
Not bad for a "Maybe Fighter"
Would they have achieved similar results in contemporary aircraft types or opposition types like Mirage III/V or A-4?
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Thread drift partial answer
Ivan
FI conflict
A-4 Skyhawk 133 sorties by the A-4B and 86 by the A-4C. They flew with unreliable ejection seats due to the US embargo placed from 1977. Naval A-4Q performed 12 sorties. They were highly dependent on the two available KC-130 tankers, limiting the number of aeroplanes that could attack simultaneously.
Mirage IIIEA Argentine sources indicate they made 58 sorties providing decoys for the strike units with particular success on the June 8 attacks against the British landings ships. Their lesser internal fuel capacity, compared to the Daggers, prevented them from being used in their escort role.
Source; Argentine air forces in the Falklands War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Having watched the documentary on the conflict a few weeks ago: massive respect to all involved.
Back on topic.
Ivan
FI conflict
A-4 Skyhawk 133 sorties by the A-4B and 86 by the A-4C. They flew with unreliable ejection seats due to the US embargo placed from 1977. Naval A-4Q performed 12 sorties. They were highly dependent on the two available KC-130 tankers, limiting the number of aeroplanes that could attack simultaneously.
Mirage IIIEA Argentine sources indicate they made 58 sorties providing decoys for the strike units with particular success on the June 8 attacks against the British landings ships. Their lesser internal fuel capacity, compared to the Daggers, prevented them from being used in their escort role.
Source; Argentine air forces in the Falklands War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Having watched the documentary on the conflict a few weeks ago: massive respect to all involved.
Back on topic.
Last edited by lj101; 4th Feb 2013 at 11:10.
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The British People own the Arrows
When I was in the RAF I thought the Arrows were great fun and I really enjoyed watching them at airshows all over the world.
When I retired and moved into an intensely civilian environment I discovered that a strangely large number of people (probably taxpayers; but I didn't pry!) really loved them.
It seems to me that the British people pay for, and therefore own, the Red Arrows. The continued existence of the RAFAT shouldn't be dependant on the Defence Budget.
If the people want them they should keep them and RAFAT should be provided with the best aircraft for their role.
Rgds SOS
When I retired and moved into an intensely civilian environment I discovered that a strangely large number of people (probably taxpayers; but I didn't pry!) really loved them.
It seems to me that the British people pay for, and therefore own, the Red Arrows. The continued existence of the RAFAT shouldn't be dependant on the Defence Budget.
If the people want them they should keep them and RAFAT should be provided with the best aircraft for their role.
Rgds SOS
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SOSL, I think that was suggested in a very similar thread which seems to come around once a year.
It isn't that we don't want/need the Reds, BBMF and other similar things, but funding shouldn't come from the Defence budget. While it does most will still think the UK Defense pot is fat enough (Looking at the 'PAS offer and FRI's' thread would probably reinforce that!)
By all means use the appropriate service establishments, infrastructure and personnel but create a budget for it (UK Heritage?).
It isn't that we don't want/need the Reds, BBMF and other similar things, but funding shouldn't come from the Defence budget. While it does most will still think the UK Defense pot is fat enough (Looking at the 'PAS offer and FRI's' thread would probably reinforce that!)
By all means use the appropriate service establishments, infrastructure and personnel but create a budget for it (UK Heritage?).
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As a point of interest, if automatic budget cuts come into effect on March 1 in the States, the Blue Angels will cease to display for the third and fourth quarters of this year.
Last edited by Justanopinion; 4th Feb 2013 at 17:20.
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Originally Posted by Ivan Rogov
By all means use the appropriate service establishments, infrastructure and personnel but create a budget for it (UK Heritage?).
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 5th Feb 2013 at 23:30. Reason: Mong spelling!
The CNO of the US Navy has announced the planned grounding of the Blue Angels Display team due to budget cuts.
Times are bad over here guys.....going to be a lot good surplus hardware up for sell.
Sequester Cuts: Navy to Ground Blue Angels
Times are bad over here guys.....going to be a lot good surplus hardware up for sell.
Sequester Cuts: Navy to Ground Blue Angels
The local view
A rather parochial view from the local MP.
"I hate to see any of our brave soldiers, sailors and airmen made redundant and to see our defence capability cut, but I draw the line when it comes to scrapping our national aerobatic team," said Mr Leigh.
Gainsborough MP Edward Leigh receives assurances over the future of the Red Arrows | This is Scunthorpe
"I hate to see any of our brave soldiers, sailors and airmen made redundant and to see our defence capability cut, but I draw the line when it comes to scrapping our national aerobatic team," said Mr Leigh.
Gainsborough MP Edward Leigh receives assurances over the future of the Red Arrows | This is Scunthorpe
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Who owns the Reds
SOSL is entirely wrong, the British people do not own the Reds any more than they own nuclear subs or fylingdales; they simply provide the cash from which they are purchased and maintained
The British people gain certain rights over the services by reason of the tax support, they may demand the services defend them and their interests at home and abroad and if required die in the attempt but the services, guided by the government, will decide how this should be done.
The British public may exercise their opinion of this at the next election
The British people gain certain rights over the services by reason of the tax support, they may demand the services defend them and their interests at home and abroad and if required die in the attempt but the services, guided by the government, will decide how this should be done.
The British public may exercise their opinion of this at the next election
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Twon
Correct thread, correct statement, correct audience. I was replying to Tinribs. Think outside the box. Must I spell it out?
Correct thread, correct statement, correct audience. I was replying to Tinribs. Think outside the box. Must I spell it out?
Last edited by Genstabler; 8th Feb 2013 at 07:23.
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In 1776 Britain claimed sovereignty [having first occupied in 1590?] over the Falklands 34 years before the Spanish [Not Argentina] made a similar claim........
Britain returned permanently in 1833.
The RAF need pilots now don't they? The Reds must have persuaded many a young air minded type to volunteer.
Scrap all Wind Farm/Solar subsidies and keep the Reds flying with the proceeds!
Money better spent and many raptors and bats saved too.
Britain returned permanently in 1833.
The RAF need pilots now don't they? The Reds must have persuaded many a young air minded type to volunteer.
Scrap all Wind Farm/Solar subsidies and keep the Reds flying with the proceeds!
Money better spent and many raptors and bats saved too.
Last edited by aviate1138; 8th Feb 2013 at 07:50. Reason: other stuff
So grounding the Blues, who display a mere 4 aircraft, will save $20M for 30 airshows?
Yet the Reds, who display 9 aircraft, have a budget of about half that for the entire year.
It seems that we have a much better deal for the taxpayer in the UK!
Grounding the Blues would be an anti-Obama redneck "Here's what that dumbass y'all voted fower has gon' and made us do" political statement, in my opinion.....
Yet the Reds, who display 9 aircraft, have a budget of about half that for the entire year.
It seems that we have a much better deal for the taxpayer in the UK!
Grounding the Blues would be an anti-Obama redneck "Here's what that dumbass y'all voted fower has gon' and made us do" political statement, in my opinion.....
Beags.....old Son....you are getting Senile in your old age.
The Blues display Six F-18's plus a C-130.
You may have forgotten it but the logistics required to cover a country that is about 3,000 miles across and over 1500 miles from top to bottom....not counting the short hop to Hawaii and Alaska, is just a wee bit larger than the UK.
Likewise when you have Front Line Fighter aircraft that have two huge After Burner equipped engines as compared to an obsolete single engine trainer....the fuel burn is slighter higher.
As you may recall....though from your post I doubt you will.....the USAF Thunderbirds replaced the F-4's with T-38's for a while due to cost issues. The Blues went from the F-4 to the A-4 about the same time for a while.
They too went the small Trainer route as has the Reds for so many decades.
The Blues display Six F-18's plus a C-130.
You may have forgotten it but the logistics required to cover a country that is about 3,000 miles across and over 1500 miles from top to bottom....not counting the short hop to Hawaii and Alaska, is just a wee bit larger than the UK.
Likewise when you have Front Line Fighter aircraft that have two huge After Burner equipped engines as compared to an obsolete single engine trainer....the fuel burn is slighter higher.
As you may recall....though from your post I doubt you will.....the USAF Thunderbirds replaced the F-4's with T-38's for a while due to cost issues. The Blues went from the F-4 to the A-4 about the same time for a while.
They too went the small Trainer route as has the Reds for so many decades.
Last edited by SASless; 8th Feb 2013 at 10:13.