WOULD YOU JOIN UP NOW
If I'm honest I find it moderately offensive the way some of the 'old and bold' continue to slag off today's military because it isn't the same organisation they joined back in 1962 (or whenever). I think some people need to get over themselves and accept the fact that the world will continue to evolve and sadly things will change. Not always for the better but c'est la vie. If people hadn't accepted change in the past we would never have had an Airforce and we'd still be using aircraft for artillery spotting...
As was once said, when your 'goodies' bucket fails to counterbalance your '$hit' bucket, it's time to pull the B&Y. But the problem now is that there is cock-all with which to fill the 'goodies' bucket and far too much with which to fill the '$hit' bucket....
If you ever find a copy of the old 'Frustration' FS movie, you'll see what the real RAF used to consider frustrating for most aircrew. Whereas the same things nowadays would be considered quite luxurious!
Once the UK wises up and stops wasting our best people, money and time in an unwinnable war in Afghanistan, just what roles will the UK's Armed Forces be expected to fill?
Last edited by BEagle; 24th Nov 2012 at 19:38.
WOULD YOU JOIN UP NOW
BEagle.
As I said. Times change. With all due respect, maybe you should let those that are currently serving make those decisions for themselves. I've been in for over 13 years so far and my bucket is just fine. For now.
Others buckets may be entirely different but I'll let them fight their own battles.
I'm not saying life is perfect but then when has it ever been? Was it really so different twenty or thirty years ago? Was everybody completely happy?
There are many things I would like to change. Some crap things have happened in my time. I used to be based at Coltishall so I know all about the good life. Sadly we just have to accept the changes and move on or we spend our lives being miserable. Or we leave.
I think the bottom line is that everyone in the UK has had to have a bite of the same **** sandwich and life is not perfect anywhere right now.
The forces still offer a good life for those that like that sort of thing. It probably always will. It just won't be the life it was in 19...(insert year here)!
BV
As I said. Times change. With all due respect, maybe you should let those that are currently serving make those decisions for themselves. I've been in for over 13 years so far and my bucket is just fine. For now.
Others buckets may be entirely different but I'll let them fight their own battles.
I'm not saying life is perfect but then when has it ever been? Was it really so different twenty or thirty years ago? Was everybody completely happy?
There are many things I would like to change. Some crap things have happened in my time. I used to be based at Coltishall so I know all about the good life. Sadly we just have to accept the changes and move on or we spend our lives being miserable. Or we leave.
I think the bottom line is that everyone in the UK has had to have a bite of the same **** sandwich and life is not perfect anywhere right now.
The forces still offer a good life for those that like that sort of thing. It probably always will. It just won't be the life it was in 19...(insert year here)!
BV
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not saying life is perfect but then when has it ever been? Was it really so different twenty or thirty years ago? Was everybody completely happy?
War games for me included arriving at work unshaved and climbing atop the nearest unmanned helicopter to BF it whilst groundcrew opened hangar doors and ensured F700 were good to go. Once a crew (2 persons) had been constituted, you loaded the cab and flew to a briefed forward site (farmyard). On more than one occasion I have been the first person on site with no GC support.
You then spent however long it took in freezing conditions living in a rat infested barn and packing up daily as you were unlikely to end the day were you started.
No comms with home and initially you had no idea whether it was a game or the real thing. Toilets were a spade and a luxury item was a bowl filled with hot water from a lazy something or other that provided hot water.
Morale and comeraderie were sky high. Budgets did not feature in the MoD dictionary and if one of lifes dramas came your way, it was rapidly deleted by in house suport. The only fear by military aviators (families) then was the arrival of a staff car, female officer, padre and exec in No 1s for aircraft did fall out if the sky far too often.
Work hard, play hard was a way of life, not a cheesy quotation. Few if anybody in todays military can say that and nobody has a key ingrediant of a military career: Job Security. It has changed - significantly- and whilst the new generation know no different, that does not make the support you receive from Govt morally right.
Apart from general downsizing and a reduction in the number of aircraft types, the RAF of the early 1990s wasn't really that different to the service I'd joined in 1968. For example, the students on the UAS at which I instructed enjoyed a similar way of life to that which I'd experienced 25 years earlier - if anything, their flying training was rather better. But there were few APOs amongst their number....and in equivalent terms, their pay was a fraction of the pay we'd enjoyed as APOs in 1972.
However, after Gulf War 1 it was cut after cut after cut and ever increasing levels of niff-naff and triv until my personal QoL minima were reached 11 years later. It was time to decide FIIQ and to pull the B&Y only 3 years before my NRD - things had dropped to a level which I would no longer tolerate. Interestingly, whilst at Binnsworth I told a DeskO that I was considering PVR-ing and he advised me that he'd be off like a shot in my circumstances - in his opinion the RAF was destroying itself and there was little worth staying in for.
The next 10 years were pretty good though - working on a worthwhile programme for which I was well-qualifed under a boss (ex-mil) who understood leadership and people's needs and who inspired the small, productive team who worked for him. Lots of European travel and no administrivial arguments over reasonable expenses.
However, after Gulf War 1 it was cut after cut after cut and ever increasing levels of niff-naff and triv until my personal QoL minima were reached 11 years later. It was time to decide FIIQ and to pull the B&Y only 3 years before my NRD - things had dropped to a level which I would no longer tolerate. Interestingly, whilst at Binnsworth I told a DeskO that I was considering PVR-ing and he advised me that he'd be off like a shot in my circumstances - in his opinion the RAF was destroying itself and there was little worth staying in for.
The next 10 years were pretty good though - working on a worthwhile programme for which I was well-qualifed under a boss (ex-mil) who understood leadership and people's needs and who inspired the small, productive team who worked for him. Lots of European travel and no administrivial arguments over reasonable expenses.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Erehwon
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the question is 'Would YOU join up today' (my capitals), then why complain when people state why they wouldn't? We can only judge (honestly) by reference to our own experiences and beliefs.
If you don't WANT to see what folks other than you feel about the questions, then stay off the thread or the forum.
Each of us has the right to answer the question honestly, dishonestly, emotionally, or whatever suits - that's why it's a forum.
If you don't WANT to see what folks other than you feel about the questions, then stay off the thread or the forum.
Each of us has the right to answer the question honestly, dishonestly, emotionally, or whatever suits - that's why it's a forum.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manchester
Age: 31
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a military aircrew wanna-be. I would definitely join up and I intend to. Its all I've ever wanted to do!
There seems to be a lot of negativity about the service these days from some of the ex-serving guys and gals on here. I understand your reasons for it. The Forces have changed a large amount from the looks of things since the Cold war days.
From my perspective, I wouldn't know what those days were like. Unfortunately I never will. I can only read threads of the types of things that happened on here from you guys who served in the different eras. Some have given me some great laughs reading. I'm sure when I join up (if I get selected) I will have a fantastic time and will love it. The Forces still seem to offer a great lifestyle with opportunities that civvi street simply cannot compete with! I'd be mad not to attempt joining.
Plus what else is a young lad studying a Bsc Mathematics to do for a career? I don't fancy being a teacher all my life!
Chris.
There seems to be a lot of negativity about the service these days from some of the ex-serving guys and gals on here. I understand your reasons for it. The Forces have changed a large amount from the looks of things since the Cold war days.
From my perspective, I wouldn't know what those days were like. Unfortunately I never will. I can only read threads of the types of things that happened on here from you guys who served in the different eras. Some have given me some great laughs reading. I'm sure when I join up (if I get selected) I will have a fantastic time and will love it. The Forces still seem to offer a great lifestyle with opportunities that civvi street simply cannot compete with! I'd be mad not to attempt joining.
Plus what else is a young lad studying a Bsc Mathematics to do for a career? I don't fancy being a teacher all my life!
Chris.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In the east, the Middle East!
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris
Go for it! When people remember their past lives, some remember the good times, and others the bad. I had a great career, and while it is different today than what it was then, it will still be great for you. Make the most of the opportunities on offer and take what you can from it. Plus, give back what you can and you will have a long and successful career.
Good luck to you!
Go for it! When people remember their past lives, some remember the good times, and others the bad. I had a great career, and while it is different today than what it was then, it will still be great for you. Make the most of the opportunities on offer and take what you can from it. Plus, give back what you can and you will have a long and successful career.
Good luck to you!
Last edited by 84nomore; 26th Nov 2012 at 04:54.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Equally good views from both sides of the fence here. I like BV's posts, but also think Dengue Dude's point above is spot on.
A wee extra contribution if I may. The biggest difference I noticed between my military and civil careers was in the people I went to work with. In the RAF a very high percentage of good eggs and a very low percentage of oxygen thieves. In civvy street, less of the former and much, much more of the latter.
And I suspect that is one thing that has not changed too much.
A wee extra contribution if I may. The biggest difference I noticed between my military and civil careers was in the people I went to work with. In the RAF a very high percentage of good eggs and a very low percentage of oxygen thieves. In civvy street, less of the former and much, much more of the latter.
And I suspect that is one thing that has not changed too much.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Then the Army took over and every expenditure had to be pre-authorised. My entertainment bill increased to around £500 (and we did it to the approved rates and cheap too). My T&S also increased to around £1200.
My last shot from the finance officer was about my 1st class rail travel (before the rules changed) "But the Colonel goes Standard." So? I travelled 1st.
Treat people like adults and they should behave responsibly. If not jump on the individual not everyone.
ChristianR354, good luck in your endeavour and I hope you are selected to become an RAF pilot.
Typhoon is becoming more and more established, with F-35B not far off. On the ME side Voyager and Atlas should be in service by the time you graduate...oh and some helicopters too, although quite what they will all be doing post-NW Frontier is moot.
Good luck with your degree in Hard Sums! Have you considered joining the OTC or URNU? Or perhaps the UAS, although the flying isn't terribly generous these days and the CAA won't allow much of it to count towards a civil licence (except the NPPL).
It's a pity you won't have anything like the opportunities which were available even 15 years ago though. But try to make the most of what's left.....
Typhoon is becoming more and more established, with F-35B not far off. On the ME side Voyager and Atlas should be in service by the time you graduate...oh and some helicopters too, although quite what they will all be doing post-NW Frontier is moot.
Good luck with your degree in Hard Sums! Have you considered joining the OTC or URNU? Or perhaps the UAS, although the flying isn't terribly generous these days and the CAA won't allow much of it to count towards a civil licence (except the NPPL).
It's a pity you won't have anything like the opportunities which were available even 15 years ago though. But try to make the most of what's left.....
The most important thing to me in my 36yrs (came out 5yrs ago this week) was that you knew if anything went pear shaped the 'company' would look after you and your family. Towards the end of my career that one thing was eroding at a vast rate of knots and I worry there is very little left. I am still in contact with colleagues who are still in who now seem to be treated nothing other than an employee. The reciprocal to this is that folks start to treat the RAF as just another job. It's a downwards spiral...... and no, I would not wish to start 'again'.
The Future
Perhaps those considering joining the Service today should consider the issue as to whether or not there will be sufficient justification for an independent Royal Air Force, much past its centenary.
I'd sooner join the Zimbabwean Air Force, better T&Cs!
Caution - includes strong language!
Last edited by BEagle; 26th Nov 2012 at 15:14.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a hole with an owl
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fascinating thread. It's easy to fall into the trap of "fings ain't what they used to be," and I too can bore for Britain on the topic of, "I miss the Service I joined, I don't miss the one I left," and it tickles me pink to see the "one I left" in 1995 now held up as the good old days.
In answer to the OP's question; wind the clock back to 1976 with me as teenager who'd wanted to be a pilot since he could remember, and of course I'd join up. Funnily enough, no sooner had I arrived on the UAS than I discovered that all the QFIs bar the boss had PVR'd and, over a few pints, could be heard complaining that, "It's no fun anymore, not like the old days etc." I knew they were probably right, but at that age, the prospect of flying one of Auntie Betty's pointy aeroplanes and actually being given a few beer vouchers for doing so, was all I cared about. I'm sure there's no shortage of youngsters out there who feel the same now. However, give them a few years, an idiot boss with the career light on, too much nif-naf, a marriage and a couple of kids, a posting to Afghanistan or somewhere really remote like Valley, and they'll turn bitter and twisted just like so many others.
I think there's a grain of truth in the, "It's not the Service I joined any more," line but I think it's we who change most as we get older and our priorities evolve. That said, I spent 19 years in the RAF and apart from time spent working for people like the B-word, I look back on it with great fondness, and am equally glad to say that I have never once regretted leaving.
So would I join up today? No, not even for a chance to fly the Typhoon: 150 flying hours a year if you're lucky, and that leaves an awful long time between trips for the highly-paid help to make your life pretty miserable. In no particular order, here's why I wouldn't:
1. The notion of a 'Military Covenant' between HMG and the Services has become a fiction. Loyalty is now a one-way street and they can't even afford the grease for inserting the cricket bat these days. No more military hospitals, pensions under threat, ditto MQs, allowances cut back etc as many earlier posters have pointed out.
2. And what would I actually be defending if I signed on? The days of the Cold War, with Ivan's tanks only 36 hours from Calais have gone, and I wouldn't trust a government of any colour not to put my delicate pink body in danger, on a political whim, by dragging the UK into another criminally pointless waste of blood and treasure like Afghanistan or Iraq.
3. Finally, it's never been the serviceman's lot to be picky about who he's fighting for, but, looking at the wreck of a country I was once proud to call home, and some of the oxygen-stealing biomass with which it's populated (and no, before anyone gets the wrong impression, that's not a race/immigration thing), then, no, I most certainly wouldn't sign up today to protect them.
As a footnote to my last point, I remember my late father who somehow managed to survive a stint on Hurricanes and 2 full tours on Typhoons, saying, just before he died, 'When I look at the state of the country now, I don't know why I f*cking bothered.' I think he was right.
In answer to the OP's question; wind the clock back to 1976 with me as teenager who'd wanted to be a pilot since he could remember, and of course I'd join up. Funnily enough, no sooner had I arrived on the UAS than I discovered that all the QFIs bar the boss had PVR'd and, over a few pints, could be heard complaining that, "It's no fun anymore, not like the old days etc." I knew they were probably right, but at that age, the prospect of flying one of Auntie Betty's pointy aeroplanes and actually being given a few beer vouchers for doing so, was all I cared about. I'm sure there's no shortage of youngsters out there who feel the same now. However, give them a few years, an idiot boss with the career light on, too much nif-naf, a marriage and a couple of kids, a posting to Afghanistan or somewhere really remote like Valley, and they'll turn bitter and twisted just like so many others.
I think there's a grain of truth in the, "It's not the Service I joined any more," line but I think it's we who change most as we get older and our priorities evolve. That said, I spent 19 years in the RAF and apart from time spent working for people like the B-word, I look back on it with great fondness, and am equally glad to say that I have never once regretted leaving.
So would I join up today? No, not even for a chance to fly the Typhoon: 150 flying hours a year if you're lucky, and that leaves an awful long time between trips for the highly-paid help to make your life pretty miserable. In no particular order, here's why I wouldn't:
1. The notion of a 'Military Covenant' between HMG and the Services has become a fiction. Loyalty is now a one-way street and they can't even afford the grease for inserting the cricket bat these days. No more military hospitals, pensions under threat, ditto MQs, allowances cut back etc as many earlier posters have pointed out.
2. And what would I actually be defending if I signed on? The days of the Cold War, with Ivan's tanks only 36 hours from Calais have gone, and I wouldn't trust a government of any colour not to put my delicate pink body in danger, on a political whim, by dragging the UK into another criminally pointless waste of blood and treasure like Afghanistan or Iraq.
3. Finally, it's never been the serviceman's lot to be picky about who he's fighting for, but, looking at the wreck of a country I was once proud to call home, and some of the oxygen-stealing biomass with which it's populated (and no, before anyone gets the wrong impression, that's not a race/immigration thing), then, no, I most certainly wouldn't sign up today to protect them.
As a footnote to my last point, I remember my late father who somehow managed to survive a stint on Hurricanes and 2 full tours on Typhoons, saying, just before he died, 'When I look at the state of the country now, I don't know why I f*cking bothered.' I think he was right.
Last edited by Ali Qadoo; 26th Nov 2012 at 16:50. Reason: Grammatical howler