WOULD YOU JOIN UP NOW
Gentleman Aviator
Well said high spirits
And these days they wouldn't make me fly upside down at 30 000 ft before letting me near a helicopter!
And these days they wouldn't make me fly upside down at 30 000 ft before letting me near a helicopter!
"Here's the exam question for the nay sayers out there:
What would you do instead?"
I'm doing exactly what I want to...and to a level that suits me, not the RAF.
I answered earlier implying that I believed the (justifiably required) Rank structure and the snobbery that comes with it, holds people back. Since leaving the RAF in 1999 as a Sgt, I have been working in aviation positions equivalent to OC Eng (or whatever today's name is) or higher and with probably more responsibility than they have.
If I told you my title, military folk might just sneer because it is something you have but you treat it with contempt and generally ignore it. Civil aviation folk would not sneer - and some might even move back a step or two.
I am grateful for the training and confidence the RAF gave me - I enjoyed much of my time in the Mob as many here have also said. However, I am not sure new entrants would get anywhere near similar treatment and I believe the status of servicemen nowadays is only a tadge better to being long-term unemployed. I don't think there is any security in any jobs - military or civil and, with the loss of any tangible care or benefit for being a serviceman/woman and the current out-sourcing to FTR and Reserve service, the whole military ethos is being undermined.
Again, No. I would not join up now and I would not advise anyone to do so. But I would not prevent anyone from doing that if they really wished to ('Cos that's what my parents (who were both ww2 combatants) did for me when I was young).
What would you do instead?"
I'm doing exactly what I want to...and to a level that suits me, not the RAF.
I answered earlier implying that I believed the (justifiably required) Rank structure and the snobbery that comes with it, holds people back. Since leaving the RAF in 1999 as a Sgt, I have been working in aviation positions equivalent to OC Eng (or whatever today's name is) or higher and with probably more responsibility than they have.
If I told you my title, military folk might just sneer because it is something you have but you treat it with contempt and generally ignore it. Civil aviation folk would not sneer - and some might even move back a step or two.
I am grateful for the training and confidence the RAF gave me - I enjoyed much of my time in the Mob as many here have also said. However, I am not sure new entrants would get anywhere near similar treatment and I believe the status of servicemen nowadays is only a tadge better to being long-term unemployed. I don't think there is any security in any jobs - military or civil and, with the loss of any tangible care or benefit for being a serviceman/woman and the current out-sourcing to FTR and Reserve service, the whole military ethos is being undermined.
Again, No. I would not join up now and I would not advise anyone to do so. But I would not prevent anyone from doing that if they really wished to ('Cos that's what my parents (who were both ww2 combatants) did for me when I was young).
Last edited by Rigga; 27th Nov 2012 at 21:38.
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But that's the point isn't it? You are now able to do a job which in all respects equals that of an OC Eng because of whatever 'right stuff' you had to start with and how it was formed by your service...and you reached Sgt...so any wonder you have leadership, supervision and management squared away.
The thread is about what would you do now as a school leaver. Join or not? My question - if not, then what? Not now, as someone who clearly excelled in the RAF. What would you do now as a (theoretical) 16-18 year old that gets you to 'what I want'.
The thread is about what would you do now as a school leaver. Join or not? My question - if not, then what? Not now, as someone who clearly excelled in the RAF. What would you do now as a (theoretical) 16-18 year old that gets you to 'what I want'.
high spirits, this thread was quite polite until your inappropriate rhetoric appeared.....
Nevertheless, I grant you that the rotary world has indeed been busier in recent years than hitherto. But quite what do you expect to be doing once the UK pulls out of the North West Frontier war, as surely it will?
teeteringhead, in my day anyone daring to suggest that they'd sooner fly a helicopter than fly upside down at 30000 ft would have their attitude seriously questioned. Probably unfair, but that's the way it was back then. And anyone on our JP course expressing a wish to fly multis would certainly have been viewed as being distinctly suspect with a whiff of LMF about them. Turning a Gnat inverted at FL450, pulling to 30º below the horizon, barrelling to 40º and watching the little thing go supersonic was something we were all expected to prefer to chugging around in a Whirlwind or Wessex* - or to becoming a co-pilot.
In fact after one hard day at Brawdy, whilst making himself a cup of tea, our Flt Cdr jokingly remarked "If you think this is all TFD, you can always volunteer for helicopters". 2 students took him at his word and were off the station soon afterwards........to become navigators
However, à chacun son goût.
*Other rotary types were also available....I think?
Nevertheless, I grant you that the rotary world has indeed been busier in recent years than hitherto. But quite what do you expect to be doing once the UK pulls out of the North West Frontier war, as surely it will?
teeteringhead, in my day anyone daring to suggest that they'd sooner fly a helicopter than fly upside down at 30000 ft would have their attitude seriously questioned. Probably unfair, but that's the way it was back then. And anyone on our JP course expressing a wish to fly multis would certainly have been viewed as being distinctly suspect with a whiff of LMF about them. Turning a Gnat inverted at FL450, pulling to 30º below the horizon, barrelling to 40º and watching the little thing go supersonic was something we were all expected to prefer to chugging around in a Whirlwind or Wessex* - or to becoming a co-pilot.
In fact after one hard day at Brawdy, whilst making himself a cup of tea, our Flt Cdr jokingly remarked "If you think this is all TFD, you can always volunteer for helicopters". 2 students took him at his word and were off the station soon afterwards........to become navigators
However, à chacun son goût.
*Other rotary types were also available....I think?
Last edited by BEagle; 28th Nov 2012 at 06:53.
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Beagle,
It wasn't inappropriate to suggest that your assertion that the RAF was ruined in the mid 90s was just plain wrong. If it was regarded as LMF to go rotary or multis in your day, that just shows how one eyed some of your generation were. Try suggesting that AH and MERT are tasks that could be carried out by the spineless.
As to what helicopters will be doing post AFG, read your recent history. Helicopters have been involved in pretty much everything from anti piracy ops to disaster relief, as well as in conflict. You are either anti helicopters because you don't understand their utility in Air Power, or you are just jealous because we are still a branch of the military that knows how to have a great time.
Either way, rotary remains a very sought after and popular first choice of many joiners today, and that is what this thread is about.
It wasn't inappropriate to suggest that your assertion that the RAF was ruined in the mid 90s was just plain wrong. If it was regarded as LMF to go rotary or multis in your day, that just shows how one eyed some of your generation were. Try suggesting that AH and MERT are tasks that could be carried out by the spineless.
As to what helicopters will be doing post AFG, read your recent history. Helicopters have been involved in pretty much everything from anti piracy ops to disaster relief, as well as in conflict. You are either anti helicopters because you don't understand their utility in Air Power, or you are just jealous because we are still a branch of the military that knows how to have a great time.
Either way, rotary remains a very sought after and popular first choice of many joiners today, and that is what this thread is about.
high spirits, please disabuse yourself of the notion that I am 'anti-helicopters'. That is simply untrue. But your comment that I was 'talking hoop' was certainly inappropriate.
Yes, we were 'encouraged' to be FJ-centric in my day, rightly or wrongly. That's the way it was.
Using RW aircraft for anti-piracy and anti-smuggling tasks certainly seems an excellent future role, assuming that the aircraft are adequately equipped and that the UK wouldn't try and do it on the cheap.
A branch of the military which still knows how to have a great time? That's probably subjective - but enjoy it anyway.
Yes, we were 'encouraged' to be FJ-centric in my day, rightly or wrongly. That's the way it was.
Using RW aircraft for anti-piracy and anti-smuggling tasks certainly seems an excellent future role, assuming that the aircraft are adequately equipped and that the UK wouldn't try and do it on the cheap.
A branch of the military which still knows how to have a great time? That's probably subjective - but enjoy it anyway.
Last edited by BEagle; 28th Nov 2012 at 08:03.
Gentleman Aviator
teeteringhead, in my day
Of the 3 (all keen volunteer) rotary postings from my JP course, one became a 4-star, one a 2-star .... and I haven't done too badly myself! None were invited to retrain as directional consultants.
And for our rotary brethren (and sororiety), flying on operations is nothing new; my first three tours, covering 1970-76, all involved me (at least potentially, often actually) in being on the wrong end of someone else's ammunition. I recall in Norn Iron on my second tour sitting in some god-forsaken FOB Portakabin watching a televison documentary on the (Gnat-equipped) Red Arrows, where one of the team said:
"..and of course we are the only Squadron (sic) in the RAF who are actually doing what they are trained for!"
On that same tour, returning hurriedly from Londonderry to Ballykelly having come under small-arms fire, I overheard a Valley Gnat on guard. First of all the bumbling, tongue-tied stude cocking up his Practice Pan, then the same-callsign-different-voice Sky God in the back seat doing a perfect PATHASATNIE - one could almost hear the "for
sake Bloggs, this is how you do it!" on Intercomm between the transmissions, probably accommpanied by a firm slap on the bone-dome..Being of a reflective nature even then - albeit quite scared at the time - I pondered that not only did those guys not know what another part of the RAF was doing at the very same moment not 150 miles away, they probably never would .... When were you at Valley BEags?
So FJ-centric it was then, is now, and probably ever shall be. But being legally authorised to a min ht of 0 feet - latterly at night also - IMHO beats your "little thing going supersonic" 7 miles up. But horses for courses, we will always need both, and animosity between forces only provides fuel for those who wish to see the end of an Independant Air Force.
I think too you are being uncharacterstically optimistic if you think "small wars" will cease with the withdrawal from Afghan. Moreover, with the notable exception of Libya, rotary has normally been "first in last out" on operations. Who knows where the next Op will be..... but it will need SH.
It's always the "unknown unknowns" that get us ........
And to avoid the accusation of Thread Drift, I answer the OP's question with a "yes" - but I probably wouldn't stay as long - although my SSC DEC "B" is getting a bit long in the tooth now......
Last edited by teeteringhead; 28th Nov 2012 at 09:59.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
According to today's Torygraph, the AFG of post 2014 may look little different from today.
The Afg Army will be offered air support. Air support needs a base. A base needs defending. CSAR will be required. That base will need supporting, etc etc.
What will change will be the active patrolling that the Army is doing now.
The airbase however will need an outer defensive perimeter at whatever distance the bad-guys can reach. Dien Bien Phu springs to mind.
The Afg Army will be offered air support. Air support needs a base. A base needs defending. CSAR will be required. That base will need supporting, etc etc.
What will change will be the active patrolling that the Army is doing now.
The airbase however will need an outer defensive perimeter at whatever distance the bad-guys can reach. Dien Bien Phu springs to mind.
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Beagle,
Anti piracy, anti smuggling and worldwide disaster relief are not 'future roles'. They are just some of what helicopters of all services have done and continue to do. Witness RN mk1 Merlin, SK4 and Lynx off Africa, RAF disaster relief ops in Pakistan and Mozambique. All done in addition to conflict in Middle East, West Africa and the Balkans since I joined.
I firmly believe that I take a more balanced view of the original question than you. Why? Because I still serve and can comment on the 'now' part of the question than purely the 'you' bit. I think that your judgement has been clouded by one-eyed idiots (JP QFIs) who belong to yesteryear.
It's still a good place to be, and an exciting job that is suitably paid. Like all jobs, it has its good and its bad at times. But, it still attracts the same calibre as ever; there are just fewer seats. I would have my time again - definitely.
Anti piracy, anti smuggling and worldwide disaster relief are not 'future roles'. They are just some of what helicopters of all services have done and continue to do. Witness RN mk1 Merlin, SK4 and Lynx off Africa, RAF disaster relief ops in Pakistan and Mozambique. All done in addition to conflict in Middle East, West Africa and the Balkans since I joined.
I firmly believe that I take a more balanced view of the original question than you. Why? Because I still serve and can comment on the 'now' part of the question than purely the 'you' bit. I think that your judgement has been clouded by one-eyed idiots (JP QFIs) who belong to yesteryear.
It's still a good place to be, and an exciting job that is suitably paid. Like all jobs, it has its good and its bad at times. But, it still attracts the same calibre as ever; there are just fewer seats. I would have my time again - definitely.
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chugging around in a Whirlwind
Blacksheep
To avoid this becoming a witch hunt, which it was never meant to be, that isn't what BEagle is doing. What he is saying is that when he went through training (just after the war) a desire to be anything other than a fast jet pilot was frowned upon. Please note that BEags isn't saying that he thought people had LMF for wanting to go ME/RW but the system viewed it that way. To be honest, when I went through training in the 80s it was still the same; it was fast jet and nothing else. The view was, rightly or wrongly, that only those who couldn't make the grade as FJ pilots went ME or RW. Sadly for me, my brain didn't work at 7 - 9 miles a minute and I only really cracked 5 - 6 miles per minute, so ME for me and lots of global sight seeing.
There's no need to wrinkle one's nose at helicopter and multi piston pilots
An update ....Would I encourage youth today to join?
Crash Minor has just joined CCF (RAF) and done his first AEF at Leeming (and enjoyed it immensly). Would I encourage him to join in a few years? Defnitely....as it will stop him from raiding the Bank of Mum and Dad in years to come.
Crash Minor has just joined CCF (RAF) and done his first AEF at Leeming (and enjoyed it immensly). Would I encourage him to join in a few years? Defnitely....as it will stop him from raiding the Bank of Mum and Dad in years to come.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
It was also perceived that the young man wishing to train for ME saw this as an easy option for gaining ME hours and a civvie licence.
Roly, you'll pay for that! 'Just after the war' indeed!! Still, I'm glad that both you and Courtney were able to understand my point...
When I arrived at Cranwell as a Flt Cdt, from a typical pilot course perhaps 3 went to Valley, 1 or 2 to Ternhill and 9-10 to Oakington. But by the time I'd wasted the Queen's money at University for 4 years, everyone was expected to go to Valley - or to be restreamed. The very small residual requirement for additional ME or RW trainees was made up from those who were suspended from FJ training. Indeed in 1976, unless you'd made it to a FJ OCU, you were unlikely to be restreamed ME and the wretched Jestreams were actually taken out of service for a while. Some refresher training for those returning to ME squadrons was outsourced to the Beech Baron at (I think) Hamble.
The logic for everyone going fast-jet was the need for more fast-jet pilots (and navs) than ME/RW
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Great read. I started the post after trying to explain to a Polish handling agent that Fog was know as ground crew sunshine thus allowing me to go on the pop as I had no aircraft to play with. What I have learned is that there are plenty in the Mob who enjoy their service and you can not really compare my time in with the present. When I talk with my neighbours lad I am certainly no going to use the phase or anything like it " I MY DAY.........". Just encourage him to enjoy it and take what he can in they way of training, sports etc.
Gentleman Aviator
BEags no offence intended my old, I suspect I was at the time of the
I was on a course which finished with 17 (started with lots more !) at Syerston. Of those we had 4 to Valley, 3 to Ternhill and the rest to Oakington.
from a typical pilot course perhaps 3 went to Valley, 1 or 2 to Ternhill and 9-10 to Oakington.
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Would I do it again if I was 18? I would have to say yes, would I have stayed longer?(10yrs) No. I enjoyed the time, yes it maybe different now but that's with any role in life, it changes/evolves. I learnt quite a bit. Met good friends and some nobbers too.
The RAF helped build a foundation of skills along with awareness of integrity/loyalty....and how i hate being late....no one irons my shirts but me....the list goes on.
I wouldn't have got to where I am now without it as helped set a direction in a trade and career.
The RAF helped build a foundation of skills along with awareness of integrity/loyalty....and how i hate being late....no one irons my shirts but me....the list goes on.
I wouldn't have got to where I am now without it as helped set a direction in a trade and career.