Poor guys, never stood a chance
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Irrespective of whom,what ,when, where, anyone joining the military should be aware:- You are paid to take orders from the heirarchy above you, no ifs ands or buts... kill or be killed, that's the objective of your employment -group.
It's non-negotiable, Military = obay orders to kill whoever your superiors dictate..........if you didn't think that one through before you signed up for the glamour/excitement/prestige/travel/cush number...or one of the myriad of other excuses I've hearrrr fo joining a killing-machine.....no sympathy, tough cheddar.
Can I just ask if I'm the only one who thinks the above text is total nonsense?
IMHO it is completely missing the point of the the thread.
We are not talking about western forces here.
The fighters on one side probably didn't choose to join up, and the opposition didn't join up as they are part of loose irregular movements.
Many of the fighters are not being paid, and to be honest the sight of your fellow villagers being brutally murdered by state troops is probably as good an incentive to fight against them as any other.
This is a serious conflict (which ones aren't
), and silly ideas about 'not thinking things through' won't really help anyone.
I for one could not look a mother in the eye whom had just seen her husband and sons gunned down in cold blood (perhaps in their own home) by out of control state troops, and then say 'they should have thought about this more fully'
It's non-negotiable, Military = obay orders to kill whoever your superiors dictate..........if you didn't think that one through before you signed up for the glamour/excitement/prestige/travel/cush number...or one of the myriad of other excuses I've hearrrr fo joining a killing-machine.....no sympathy, tough cheddar.
Can I just ask if I'm the only one who thinks the above text is total nonsense?
IMHO it is completely missing the point of the the thread.
We are not talking about western forces here.
The fighters on one side probably didn't choose to join up, and the opposition didn't join up as they are part of loose irregular movements.
Many of the fighters are not being paid, and to be honest the sight of your fellow villagers being brutally murdered by state troops is probably as good an incentive to fight against them as any other.
This is a serious conflict (which ones aren't
), and silly ideas about 'not thinking things through' won't really help anyone.I for one could not look a mother in the eye whom had just seen her husband and sons gunned down in cold blood (perhaps in their own home) by out of control state troops, and then say 'they should have thought about this more fully'
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Behind you all the way!
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sympathy for the Syrian Helicopter Crew???? Do my eyes deceive me???
And would you have said "Ahh, poor sods!" Had you been a Tommy walking through the wreckage of a downed Stuka at Dunkirk in 1940 after it had strafed a column of helpless, defenceless refugees with a few fleeing Tommies?
You W⚓!
And would you have said "Ahh, poor sods!" Had you been a Tommy walking through the wreckage of a downed Stuka at Dunkirk in 1940 after it had strafed a column of helpless, defenceless refugees with a few fleeing Tommies?
You W⚓!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,439
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And would you have said "Ahh, poor sods!"Had you been a Tommy walking through the wreckage of a downed Stuka at Dunkirk in 1940 after it had strafed a column of helpless, defenceless refugees with a few fleeing Tommies?
I am intruiged, not only in this thread, but many others here, just how many people that are, supposedly, "professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware" are shocked by the results of military (albeit established autocracies or rebel 'freedom fighters') action.
Folks that put themselves in harm's way sometimes die for their (or someone else's) cause. That's what fighting does. When we're told to engage, I for one would not be happy with someone in my formation that suddenly decided to worry about whether or not the other guys stand a chance.
Sorry, you should have thought of that before you joined. It certainly does you no credit to start talking in public about it now.
C
Folks that put themselves in harm's way sometimes die for their (or someone else's) cause. That's what fighting does. When we're told to engage, I for one would not be happy with someone in my formation that suddenly decided to worry about whether or not the other guys stand a chance.
Sorry, you should have thought of that before you joined. It certainly does you no credit to start talking in public about it now.
C
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CM,
I don't think you're being all that fair in your own post.
It's a big shout which doesn't do you any credit to suggest that sympathy for fellow man (even the baddies!) some how equates to not doing your job when you are expected too.
I can't remember which one but I am certain one the WW1 RFC aces suffered a fairly serious nervous breakdown from the guilt of the killing.
I don't think you're being all that fair in your own post.
It's a big shout which doesn't do you any credit to suggest that sympathy for fellow man (even the baddies!) some how equates to not doing your job when you are expected too.
I can't remember which one but I am certain one the WW1 RFC aces suffered a fairly serious nervous breakdown from the guilt of the killing.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
c_p - it is perhaps worth remembering that as I read his post, CM is talking about the 'armchair quarterbacks' on this thread, not those doing the killing in Syria..
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Behind you all the way!
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
His dudeness
There is a world of difference between victims through collateral damage of a bombing raid a few miles away from the target & targeting civilians through machine gun boresight & intentionally strafing them.
I would say that one is Accidental Death as the Dambuster crews weren't deliberately targeting the Polish prisoners, whereas the Stuka pilots were just murderers hellbent on following their orders to kill & maim every living thing on those roads- civilian, combatant, male, female, young, old, man woman & child.
But then again, I am British. And let's not forget who was responsible for those poor unfortunates being in those camps.
I can't believe you compared the Dambuster Crews to Stuka Crews. You have a remarkable take on factual history.
There is a world of difference between victims through collateral damage of a bombing raid a few miles away from the target & targeting civilians through machine gun boresight & intentionally strafing them.
I would say that one is Accidental Death as the Dambuster crews weren't deliberately targeting the Polish prisoners, whereas the Stuka pilots were just murderers hellbent on following their orders to kill & maim every living thing on those roads- civilian, combatant, male, female, young, old, man woman & child.
But then again, I am British. And let's not forget who was responsible for those poor unfortunates being in those camps.
I can't believe you compared the Dambuster Crews to Stuka Crews. You have a remarkable take on factual history.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But many WW2 RAF pilots had a degree of respect for their German adversaries, and in many case after the war met and became good friends. The enemy were, after all, young men following orders and fighting for survival, just like themselves.
Anyone who serves in uniform should have no doubt about the effects of weapons, but revelling in such results would as unhealthy as shying away from them. If an SH pilot says that seeing SH aircrew of a different flag going down in flames and exploding makes uncomfortable viewing it is probably a glimmer of humanity and a 'there but for the grace of God' feeling rather than being a wimp, as Courtney seems to suggest.
It still remains to be seen whether having a hard-arsed secular dictator in charge is better or worse than having fundamentalist Al Quaeda run anarchy within spitting distance of Europe.
Anyone who serves in uniform should have no doubt about the effects of weapons, but revelling in such results would as unhealthy as shying away from them. If an SH pilot says that seeing SH aircrew of a different flag going down in flames and exploding makes uncomfortable viewing it is probably a glimmer of humanity and a 'there but for the grace of God' feeling rather than being a wimp, as Courtney seems to suggest.
It still remains to be seen whether having a hard-arsed secular dictator in charge is better or worse than having fundamentalist Al Quaeda run anarchy within spitting distance of Europe.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"But many WW2 RAF pilots had a degree of respect for their German adversaries, and in many case after the war met and became good friends."
For the German Airforce as opposed to all of the military ?
Similar to the way the degree of respect for the Argie pilots ?
.
For the German Airforce as opposed to all of the military ?
Similar to the way the degree of respect for the Argie pilots ?
.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by c_p
I was replying on the assumption that Courtney was addressing serving members of the RAF posting here.
Most 'normal' people would feel emotion if they had to kill or maim someone in the course of 'duty;', but excessive weepiness and hang-wringing over a 'poor' crew that were about to unleash extremely unpleasant, maiming and killing weapons on others but got blown up themselves - no.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just think it's off that one person thinks they have the authority to scold other people for their reaction to watching other men die. Having your own opinion is different from telling other people how to feel, or scolding them for feeling a certain way.
Last edited by course_profile; 30th Oct 2012 at 09:23.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Behind you all the way!
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vin Rouge, yes, I think so. Was it the British in South Africa? Or was it 'Internment' Camps such as Croke Park in pre-1916 Dublin?
I think you'll find the German variant had gas chambers, crematoriums & laboratories for human experimentation which murdered on an industrial scale. How many Boers or Afrikaaners died in Britischer 'Concentration' Camps?
You will also find that the camps washed away post Dambusters raid were 'Labour' camps housing prisoners from Nazi occupied countries forced into working for the Nazi war machine.
Now was there anything else or were you just having a pop at the Brits?
I think you'll find the German variant had gas chambers, crematoriums & laboratories for human experimentation which murdered on an industrial scale. How many Boers or Afrikaaners died in Britischer 'Concentration' Camps?
You will also find that the camps washed away post Dambusters raid were 'Labour' camps housing prisoners from Nazi occupied countries forced into working for the Nazi war machine.
Now was there anything else or were you just having a pop at the Brits?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Daddy
Your reply may be doing you no credit.
I don't know who Vin Rouge was implying started the camps, but I was about to type a similar reply!
It is very easy to wriggle out of the concentration camp debate by blaming a whole nation, but maybe Vin Rouge was singling out one man, and then the relevance becomes clear.
From memory the pre industrial revolution British camps had 78.000-80.000 deaths, so you would appreciate that if they were larger, and lasted as long as the Nazi camps, then the figure would be higher.
Being a Brit myelf, I am sure you will also know that the RAF were also very aware of whom and how many people were in the labour camps....And knew what would happen to them.
I'm sure you also know that the 'founder of concentration camps' was also well aware of many Nazi concentration camp activities, and is well documented in his attitude to the inhabitants (so nothing for you or I to be proud of there!)
Just as an anecdote: About once a month I drive along a road where a He 111 was shot down in WW2. The crew survived and were surrounded by the local home guard unit and some farm workers with pitch forks etc. The home guard held the crew until a regular army unit arrived, BUT the farmers wife of the farm they crashed on could see just how young and terrified the crew were (one was 17), and she refused to let the soldiers take them until she had made them a cup of tea!
Courtney Mil
Can I question something you said.
You mention not wanting anyone of your side worrying if the other bloke has a chance, but can we see that a bit differently please?
If you had been soaring about in your F3 and came across some hostile intruders I would have hoped you would have downed them as soon as possible, and in a way that gave them as little chance as possible.....A fair fight is for film and TV, not real life.
But, that does not mean you needed to be happy in killing other humans, or to wish their end was painful etc. I would have seen your job as stopping their weapons platform, which in reality could do more damage than a few pink fleshy bodies.
Your reply may be doing you no credit.
I don't know who Vin Rouge was implying started the camps, but I was about to type a similar reply!
It is very easy to wriggle out of the concentration camp debate by blaming a whole nation, but maybe Vin Rouge was singling out one man, and then the relevance becomes clear.
From memory the pre industrial revolution British camps had 78.000-80.000 deaths, so you would appreciate that if they were larger, and lasted as long as the Nazi camps, then the figure would be higher.
Being a Brit myelf, I am sure you will also know that the RAF were also very aware of whom and how many people were in the labour camps....And knew what would happen to them.
I'm sure you also know that the 'founder of concentration camps' was also well aware of many Nazi concentration camp activities, and is well documented in his attitude to the inhabitants (so nothing for you or I to be proud of there!)
Just as an anecdote: About once a month I drive along a road where a He 111 was shot down in WW2. The crew survived and were surrounded by the local home guard unit and some farm workers with pitch forks etc. The home guard held the crew until a regular army unit arrived, BUT the farmers wife of the farm they crashed on could see just how young and terrified the crew were (one was 17), and she refused to let the soldiers take them until she had made them a cup of tea!
Courtney Mil
Can I question something you said.
You mention not wanting anyone of your side worrying if the other bloke has a chance, but can we see that a bit differently please?
If you had been soaring about in your F3 and came across some hostile intruders I would have hoped you would have downed them as soon as possible, and in a way that gave them as little chance as possible.....A fair fight is for film and TV, not real life.
But, that does not mean you needed to be happy in killing other humans, or to wish their end was painful etc. I would have seen your job as stopping their weapons platform, which in reality could do more damage than a few pink fleshy bodies.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by barnstormer
I would have seen your job as stopping their weapons platform, which in reality could do more damage than a few pink fleshy bodies.
I see no mention of being "happy in killing other humans, or to wish their end was painful etc." in his post?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have no issue with the stomach of the business, I have issue with whether those supporting the FSA understand some of the atrocities their members have commits in this and other theatres.
The helicopter crew had it coming if they were dropping indiscriminately, and from the video, it looks as if that was what was on board. But let's not get confused about which side will provide the most stable. Least backward future for that hole.
The helicopter crew had it coming if they were dropping indiscriminately, and from the video, it looks as if that was what was on board. But let's not get confused about which side will provide the most stable. Least backward future for that hole.