Landing
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Easy Street.
You beat me to it
I can't remember the name of them but they look like those
fish that are really easy to catch.
You beat me to it
I can't remember the name of them but they look like those
fish that are really easy to catch.
I'm very grateful that I never had to fly with someone like Courtney Mil or anyone else who knows so little about flying large aeroplanes! Attempting to put a jumbo on the numbers would probably mean you leave your tyres on the approach lights, what a plonker!
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I think it's just a 'crypto' thing chaps.
If you have the fighter crypto in you see every day as a reason to go upside down, you smell the burning fuel and your pulse picks up - not because you're about to fly, but because it's now only a matter of time before someone calls 'Fight's On!'. You like seeing steady numbers in your HUD, but only because you are about to roll in and you have parameters nailed. You would rather turn in for one last merge and 'make up some fuel' on the bingo profile than be the one to cry 'terminate - fuel'. You know that the wind's getting up - but the rule says you fly until it exceeds 40...so you strap on a fighter and join the tumbling mirth. You see every trip through initials as a chance to max perform on the break. And the numbers are there to be hit, just like the centreline.
Why? Because no-one but no-one knows what we do...so we act the part around the aerodrome or at the boat, where the non-initiates can see us. Because it's how we do business. And if we don't do it perfectly, the next guy will - and that means he's won and you've lost. And we don't lose.
On the other hand there are chaps who fly valuable, living and breathing cargo worldwide in straight lines (possibly Great Circles...wasn't paying attention). We are connected only because our day (and night) jobs involve defeating gravity. I have never been part of that community and probably never will. However, because I don't understand them I occasionally chuck the odd spear, and in return they assert that I could never work in their line of business/ company. They're right.
They see me as cavalier. I see them as pitiably dull. But the truth is that we're no more alike than a jet skier and the master of the QE2, joined merely by the medium in which we play.
So to answer the question. They land long because of simple geometry and a safety margin. We land on the numbers because someone told us it was important once, we believed them then and still do.
If you have the fighter crypto in you see every day as a reason to go upside down, you smell the burning fuel and your pulse picks up - not because you're about to fly, but because it's now only a matter of time before someone calls 'Fight's On!'. You like seeing steady numbers in your HUD, but only because you are about to roll in and you have parameters nailed. You would rather turn in for one last merge and 'make up some fuel' on the bingo profile than be the one to cry 'terminate - fuel'. You know that the wind's getting up - but the rule says you fly until it exceeds 40...so you strap on a fighter and join the tumbling mirth. You see every trip through initials as a chance to max perform on the break. And the numbers are there to be hit, just like the centreline.
Why? Because no-one but no-one knows what we do...so we act the part around the aerodrome or at the boat, where the non-initiates can see us. Because it's how we do business. And if we don't do it perfectly, the next guy will - and that means he's won and you've lost. And we don't lose.
On the other hand there are chaps who fly valuable, living and breathing cargo worldwide in straight lines (possibly Great Circles...wasn't paying attention). We are connected only because our day (and night) jobs involve defeating gravity. I have never been part of that community and probably never will. However, because I don't understand them I occasionally chuck the odd spear, and in return they assert that I could never work in their line of business/ company. They're right.
They see me as cavalier. I see them as pitiably dull. But the truth is that we're no more alike than a jet skier and the master of the QE2, joined merely by the medium in which we play.
So to answer the question. They land long because of simple geometry and a safety margin. We land on the numbers because someone told us it was important once, we believed them then and still do.
Last edited by orca; 30th Sep 2012 at 21:29.
Wow, Orca. That was so well put. Hats off to you, fella. I love it.
Now back to the fight.
You keep missig my point. I'm talking about putting your main wheels on the numbers, not in the approach light. (They're frangible anyway, so who cares it you smack the odd one).
I'm saying, put the main wheels on the numbers, not in the lights or the undershoot. What on earth is wrong with that?
P.S. Don't be too hard about not flying with me. It might have been OK. As long as you didn't insist on anyCRM stuff.
Now back to the fight.
I'm very grateful that I never had to fly with someone like Courtney Mil or anyone else who knows so little about flying large aeroplanes! Attempting to put a jumbo on the numbers would probably mean you leave your tyres on the approach lights, what a plonker!
I'm saying, put the main wheels on the numbers, not in the lights or the undershoot. What on earth is wrong with that?
P.S. Don't be too hard about not flying with me. It might have been OK. As long as you didn't insist on anyCRM stuff.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 30th Sep 2012 at 21:50.
Orca
Your last paragraph summed it exactly. Well done for that. Here's a question for you. On a dark and dirty night going into a tricky airport who would you rather have as your captain? A gung ho pilot who lets his pride get the better of him or an ultra cautious plodder who wimps out and diverts to somewhere safe.
Maybe another way of looking at it is this: the military pilot is paid to take risks whereas the civilian ones are paid not to! I should add that in a previous life I had the pleasure of a couple of trips in RAF fast jets. Impressive stuff to be sure and hats off to those of you who did that for a job. However, I am rather puzzled at the fact that some of you genuinely appear to lack an understanding why the two disciplines are different.
Not Courtney, he's just a member of the PPRUNE angling association
BBK
Your last paragraph summed it exactly. Well done for that. Here's a question for you. On a dark and dirty night going into a tricky airport who would you rather have as your captain? A gung ho pilot who lets his pride get the better of him or an ultra cautious plodder who wimps out and diverts to somewhere safe.
Maybe another way of looking at it is this: the military pilot is paid to take risks whereas the civilian ones are paid not to! I should add that in a previous life I had the pleasure of a couple of trips in RAF fast jets. Impressive stuff to be sure and hats off to those of you who did that for a job. However, I am rather puzzled at the fact that some of you genuinely appear to lack an understanding why the two disciplines are different.
Not Courtney, he's just a member of the PPRUNE angling association
BBK
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"Not Courtney, he's just a member of the PPRUNE angling association
"
I gather a push is on for him to be Chairman based on his
superb performances this season
.
"I gather a push is on for him to be Chairman based on his
superb performances this season
.
Last edited by 500N; 1st Oct 2012 at 00:17.
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BBK,
Quite the opposite old chap. I obviously didn't make the point clearly enough but I consider the two to be totally different and only tenuously connected.
Thus it isn't even a valid question to ask who I'd rather have flying...because those of Courtney's (and my) ilk have no place in the cockpit you describe. Of course I would want the professional whose mindset and skills suit the situation.
This is such a simple debate. We like landing on the numbers and in our world feel that if you could, you would. You don't and don't see why you would.
Quite the opposite old chap. I obviously didn't make the point clearly enough but I consider the two to be totally different and only tenuously connected.
Thus it isn't even a valid question to ask who I'd rather have flying...because those of Courtney's (and my) ilk have no place in the cockpit you describe. Of course I would want the professional whose mindset and skills suit the situation.
This is such a simple debate. We like landing on the numbers and in our world feel that if you could, you would. You don't and don't see why you would.
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This has to be one of the funniest threads out
It's got men on high horses, fisherman, hooks, bait, catch and release,
re bait, re catch .........
Courtney
Someone can obviously do it in a 747
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3085/2...e868bf7b07.jpg
Included to show the other famous photo from the series.
http://nicktumminello.com/wp-content...12/0385938.jpg
It's got men on high horses, fisherman, hooks, bait, catch and release,
re bait, re catch .........
Courtney
Someone can obviously do it in a 747
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3085/2...e868bf7b07.jpg
Included to show the other famous photo from the series.
http://nicktumminello.com/wp-content...12/0385938.jpg
Last edited by 500N; 1st Oct 2012 at 03:57.
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Mighty Gem.
No, they don't!
I think it is all obfuscation on their part.
There is no shame in owning up to being unable to land consistently on the correct spot, and then making a concerted attempt to improve, but to hide behind all this "SOPs" blaa is frankly fooling nobody.
"No, I could land on the piano keys if I was allowed, but the SOPs don't let me"
I only hope they are honest to themselves.
No, they don't!
I think it is all obfuscation on their part.
There is no shame in owning up to being unable to land consistently on the correct spot, and then making a concerted attempt to improve, but to hide behind all this "SOPs" blaa is frankly fooling nobody.
"No, I could land on the piano keys if I was allowed, but the SOPs don't let me"
I only hope they are honest to themselves.
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Looks very impressive Courtney Mill but this is how its supposed to be done... http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7997/airg.png
It's still a spot landing but in a much safer place - miss the spot then "Go around"... simples!
It's still a spot landing but in a much safer place - miss the spot then "Go around"... simples!
There we go! I can't believe you guys didn't just say that you actually MEAN to touchdown there. So it's not just lack of skill, it's deliberate. Why didn't you just say so?
Now, about CRM. If it's not aviation by committee, what is it? How many people does it take to set the correct altimeter setting and to make sure you don't go below the cleared altitude?
Now, about CRM. If it's not aviation by committee, what is it? How many people does it take to set the correct altimeter setting and to make sure you don't go below the cleared altitude?
Should it be any more difficult to fly through Tower Bridge in a small aircraft than to land on the piano keys & centreline? I think it should be easier as you don't have to worry about your speed or exact rate of descent. (I'm no kind of pilot, as you can surely tell).
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Sapco, the circled touchdown target in your pic is actually the aiming point. The touchdown zone starts 150m from the displaced threshold so you're quite within your rights to land there.
Maybe that'll satisfy the gung ho military lot.
Courtney, seeing as we have three altimeters and my arm isn't long enough to reach 'his', it takes two! Although that isn't CRM - but I suspect you already knew that.
Maybe that'll satisfy the gung ho military lot.
Courtney, seeing as we have three altimeters and my arm isn't long enough to reach 'his', it takes two! Although that isn't CRM - but I suspect you already knew that.
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Glad we cleared that one up. Your take on CRM reminds me of my old chief pilots definition of CRM, it made me laugh though...
C = Cockpit
R = Resource - the co-pilot
M = Manager - the skipper
C = Cockpit
R = Resource - the co-pilot
M = Manager - the skipper
On the numbers we do.
Anytime i sit in the SLF compartment and watch a lot of tarmac pass before the wheels hit the ground (yeah "hit" it is most times), one of those
pictures cross my mind.
Whats wrong with aiming on the keys and putting it down before them when landing is assured? SOPīs cant be that stupid, can they?
franzl
Anytime i sit in the SLF compartment and watch a lot of tarmac pass before the wheels hit the ground (yeah "hit" it is most times), one of those
pictures cross my mind.
Whats wrong with aiming on the keys and putting it down before them when landing is assured? SOPīs cant be that stupid, can they?
franzl