Landing
Not irrelevant at all. It just shows that large aircraft can be landed accurately in the right hands rather than accepting a touch down anywhere in a large football pitch. No one here has cared to explain why this should be, just some old guff about SOPs and insurers.
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Totally agree with 5aday, repeatedly ducking below the glide path in a civilian air transport aircraft is a sure way of getting yourself dismissed.
Last edited by sapco2; 30th Sep 2012 at 16:25.
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5aday and sapco2
It is hardly surprising you failed OASC if you can't get your wheels somewhere near the beginning of the runway. Those marks on the runway are merely an aiming point for ab-initios who lack confidence in their technique, not where a proficient pilot should be landing.
As skill develops I imagine that the airlines, just like the military expect the developing pilot to move his aiming point nearer the threshold for a more stylish arrival.
Passengers admire panache, and it certainly must help an airlines bottom line to have happy passengers.
It is a concern to me that experienced airline pilots can't land consistently without wasting runway.
It is hardly surprising you failed OASC if you can't get your wheels somewhere near the beginning of the runway. Those marks on the runway are merely an aiming point for ab-initios who lack confidence in their technique, not where a proficient pilot should be landing.
As skill develops I imagine that the airlines, just like the military expect the developing pilot to move his aiming point nearer the threshold for a more stylish arrival.
Passengers admire panache, and it certainly must help an airlines bottom line to have happy passengers.
It is a concern to me that experienced airline pilots can't land consistently without wasting runway.
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Whether you're flying a military machine or if you've moved on to fly civil airliners just operate the aircraft in accordance with your SOP's. Don't get an inflated opinion of yourself - exercise good CRM and enjoy the job would be my humble advice!
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Four pages on whether the numbers are for landing on? Fly rotary - they might be ugly, but this is one topic that won't ever be discussed in a rotary crewroom.
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What is this constant harking on about "SOPs" as if they in some way a substitute for basic flying skills?
Sure, they have their place for the green trainee, but do you seriously expect an experienced and competent poler to use "SOPs" rather than his own hard developed techniques.
No wonder pay and conditions in the airline world are dropping so fast if the pilots lack even the self respect to maintain basic standards of arrival panache.
Sure, they have their place for the green trainee, but do you seriously expect an experienced and competent poler to use "SOPs" rather than his own hard developed techniques.
No wonder pay and conditions in the airline world are dropping so fast if the pilots lack even the self respect to maintain basic standards of arrival panache.
Perhaps, Tourist, it's all the bollaux CRM chatter going on on the flight deck that distracts the handling pilot.
Are you guys really still doing CRM or are you just paying lip service to it like the RAF did? Aviation by committee, isn't it? I never yet had a problem with 'cross-cockpit gradeint or lack of airborne fluffiness.
Are you guys really still doing CRM or are you just paying lip service to it like the RAF did? Aviation by committee, isn't it? I never yet had a problem with 'cross-cockpit gradeint or lack of airborne fluffiness.
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Sapco2
I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this.
As a civvy pilot, and considering the company you are in on this forum, it is pretty arrogant to come on here and tell us how to fly.
I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this.
As a civvy pilot, and considering the company you are in on this forum, it is pretty arrogant to come on here and tell us how to fly.
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Excuse me tourist but I thought this was about why commercial pilots don't land on the numbers... I wouldnt dream of dictating an alternative landing policy for the RAF but nor should you when it comes to Civilian SOPs. if you had a single ounce of common sense you would know the reasons why and in any case the reasons have been adequately explained by others yet are still treating this as some sort of contest. That's a very dangerous game to play IMHO!
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As skill develops I imagine that the airlines, just like the military expect the developing pilot to move his aiming point nearer the threshold for a more stylish arrival.
Passengers admire panache, and it certainly must help an airlines bottom line to have happy passengers.
It is a concern to me that experienced airline pilots can't land consistently without wasting runway.
Passengers admire panache, and it certainly must help an airlines bottom line to have happy passengers.
It is a concern to me that experienced airline pilots can't land consistently without wasting runway.
It's not not hard to land smoothly and consistently on the numbers, at the 1000' mark or halfway down the tarmac but I must do it the way my employer wants me to otherwise - no more job.
It's not SOP to not land on the numbers but it is a legal requirement that I operate my aircraft within legislation and performance schedules.
Courtney, CRM is most definitely NOT aviation by committee nor is it airborne fluffiness. It is common sense, communication and information gathering which allows the commander to make an effective decision. It's not always required. It is however, a sad indictment that it needs to be taught to some people.
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As one who served on 55 Sqn one got to seeing pilots from every different military aviation background. Landing is just like many other disciplines in aviation. Some have the abiliity to put an aircraft where they want, and some don't. There is no doubt that landing a Hunter on a 6000ft runway without a chute required a certain skill. Many of our fighter ac have had pathetic brakes and so the pilots have had to land in the right place, consistantly.
"We fight as we train", so teach pilots properly from the outset.
By the way Courtney, you will burn in hell for some of those outrageous comments about CRM and cockpit gradient
"We fight as we train", so teach pilots properly from the outset.
By the way Courtney, you will burn in hell for some of those outrageous comments about CRM and cockpit gradient
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"the reasons have been adequately explained by others "
?!?!?
Where?
Yes a 747 is a big plane, but the wheels are only about 110ft behind the pilot.
You want to waste a quarter of the runway for 110ft!?!
?!?!?
Where?
Yes a 747 is a big plane, but the wheels are only about 110ft behind the pilot.
You want to waste a quarter of the runway for 110ft!?!
Courtney, you little bugger, weren't you once an IRE? In which case you should know the answer to the question posed on this thread, as you should have been able to teach it to others.
Top tip - remember where the 'PAR touchdown' point was, even in an F-4..... Also, note the vertical difference between pilot eye height and the lowest part of the aeroplane when compared between a Captain Speaking people tube and a fast-jet - and the associated minimum Threshold Crossing Height. Then convert it to a 2.5° or 3° glidesope.....
Some self-opinionated tw@t of a baby Sqn Ldr once tried to land a VC10 on the numbers at Akrotiri and ended up touching down short, almost destroying the approach end barrier in the process. He hoped that everyone would keep quiet about it - but the word got to the ears of the OCU who subsequently debriefed him somewhat positively.
Top tip - remember where the 'PAR touchdown' point was, even in an F-4..... Also, note the vertical difference between pilot eye height and the lowest part of the aeroplane when compared between a Captain Speaking people tube and a fast-jet - and the associated minimum Threshold Crossing Height. Then convert it to a 2.5° or 3° glidesope.....
Some self-opinionated tw@t of a baby Sqn Ldr once tried to land a VC10 on the numbers at Akrotiri and ended up touching down short, almost destroying the approach end barrier in the process. He hoped that everyone would keep quiet about it - but the word got to the ears of the OCU who subsequently debriefed him somewhat positively.