Turkish F4 "Vanishes"
Ah Liveleak, don't ya just love it. The home of videos deemed to be too rubbish/offensive for You Tube.
As far as I can make out a couple of trigger happy triple-A emplacements lose off a few rounds at what for all we know could be an errant seagull. A kill is dutifully claimed, prompting enrestrained celebrations from members of the Al-Assad Appreciation Society who were enoying a few hours of well-earned R&R after a busy few weeks killing unarmed women and children.
As far as I can make out a couple of trigger happy triple-A emplacements lose off a few rounds at what for all we know could be an errant seagull. A kill is dutifully claimed, prompting enrestrained celebrations from members of the Al-Assad Appreciation Society who were enoying a few hours of well-earned R&R after a busy few weeks killing unarmed women and children.
Last edited by dead_pan; 25th Jun 2012 at 18:15.
Lonewolf50 got to the point me thinks. If anything it is the Syrians who should be complaining!
1. You send out an RF-4 inside another country's national airspace, which is the most hostile action there is, bar a full blown bombing sortie with live ordnance against a country engaged in (civil) war and who is already fairly hostile to you anyway.
2. Said RF-4 is is flying in at 100 ft, high rate of knots well within national airspace (even the Turks own account suggests a tiny nav error resulting in...5 mins within Syrian airspace...5 mins?? This is no error! Not to mention other reports suggesting the kill occuring a mile or so off the beach).
3. The RF-4 was obviously on a mission to assist rebel forces through photographic intelligence assistance as per Turkey's interests in the region. Fail that it may have been on a SyAD system combat readiness test flight; unlikely - but in this case clearly the Syrians passed that test! The mere idiocy of the CPM if that were the case makes this a least likely proposition.
4. When you act like a bully you should take into account the likelihood of getting punched in the face as well, which is why the Turks will take this blow like men this time and keep the rhetoric down a bit unlike the...
5. Gaza flotilla stupidity where they again acted like bullies. Yes the Israelis did seem that they acted like bullies too in that instance and they also got punched (quite literally) in the face. It was of course Turkey who carried on whining about it and kept the rhetoric volume way up for some time. I think they are beginning to learn something with their newest infraction...
6. The Turks were much more used to "civilised: reactions from the Greeks whereby they'd overfly Greek airspace thousands of times over a number of decades without such trigger-happy response. A few times they did get kicked in the teeth such as when an F-16 pilot of theirs became overly excited 1v1 with a Greek Mirage 2000 and received a Magic 2 up the tailpipe for his confidence resulting in him dying a fiery death while his backseater was primetime television celeb for a day being treated at a Greek hospital. In that case the possibility of a war with Greece made both sides sweep the incident under the carpet as yet another technical malfunction only to be revealed by both sides a few years later...
I'm sure the Turkish pilots would be highly annoyed at the their leadership in this instance (were they to be found alive which they quite obviously will not). Act like a bully - expect to get kicked in the teeth. Should that happen, at least take it like a man, even if the person you tried to bully in his own home is a well known stinker!
1. You send out an RF-4 inside another country's national airspace, which is the most hostile action there is, bar a full blown bombing sortie with live ordnance against a country engaged in (civil) war and who is already fairly hostile to you anyway.
2. Said RF-4 is is flying in at 100 ft, high rate of knots well within national airspace (even the Turks own account suggests a tiny nav error resulting in...5 mins within Syrian airspace...5 mins?? This is no error! Not to mention other reports suggesting the kill occuring a mile or so off the beach).
3. The RF-4 was obviously on a mission to assist rebel forces through photographic intelligence assistance as per Turkey's interests in the region. Fail that it may have been on a SyAD system combat readiness test flight; unlikely - but in this case clearly the Syrians passed that test! The mere idiocy of the CPM if that were the case makes this a least likely proposition.
4. When you act like a bully you should take into account the likelihood of getting punched in the face as well, which is why the Turks will take this blow like men this time and keep the rhetoric down a bit unlike the...
5. Gaza flotilla stupidity where they again acted like bullies. Yes the Israelis did seem that they acted like bullies too in that instance and they also got punched (quite literally) in the face. It was of course Turkey who carried on whining about it and kept the rhetoric volume way up for some time. I think they are beginning to learn something with their newest infraction...
6. The Turks were much more used to "civilised: reactions from the Greeks whereby they'd overfly Greek airspace thousands of times over a number of decades without such trigger-happy response. A few times they did get kicked in the teeth such as when an F-16 pilot of theirs became overly excited 1v1 with a Greek Mirage 2000 and received a Magic 2 up the tailpipe for his confidence resulting in him dying a fiery death while his backseater was primetime television celeb for a day being treated at a Greek hospital. In that case the possibility of a war with Greece made both sides sweep the incident under the carpet as yet another technical malfunction only to be revealed by both sides a few years later...
I'm sure the Turkish pilots would be highly annoyed at the their leadership in this instance (were they to be found alive which they quite obviously will not). Act like a bully - expect to get kicked in the teeth. Should that happen, at least take it like a man, even if the person you tried to bully in his own home is a well known stinker!
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According to Turkish Deputy PM, "plane was hit by a heat-seeking laser-guided missile"
Heat seeking or laser guided? Syria has laser-guided SAMs? (like Bofors RBS-70?)
Regards!
Heat seeking or laser guided? Syria has laser-guided SAMs? (like Bofors RBS-70?)
Regards!
Last edited by Marcantilan; 25th Jun 2012 at 21:07.
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Don't you just love live leak
Later on 24 June 2012, the jet was found 1300 km under the water
Considering the Marianas Trench is just short of 11 KM in depth at its deepest, someone has got their Maths wrong.
Hope the crew are found alive.
Later on 24 June 2012, the jet was found 1300 km under the water
Considering the Marianas Trench is just short of 11 KM in depth at its deepest, someone has got their Maths wrong.
Hope the crew are found alive.
Last edited by NutLoose; 25th Jun 2012 at 23:34.
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The Syrian reaction also sends a short message to people in the West who are thinking of a no-fly zone -i.e this ain't Libya, we are ready
but generally speaking pissing off the Turks has never been a wise move
but generally speaking pissing off the Turks has never been a wise move
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Syria: Turkey issues border warning as it condemns 'heinous' attack on jet
Turkey's armed forces have toughened their rules of engagement in response to Syria’s “heinous” destruction of an air force jet, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister has announced.
Mr Erdogan delivered an emotional response to the incident last Friday when an F-4 Phantom from the Turkish air force was shot down.
“We did not receive a single warning note from Syria,” he said. “They acted without [warning]. This is a hostile act.” As a result, the prime minister said that Turkey’s armed forces now stood on heightened alert. “The rules of engagement of the Turkish Armed Forces have changed given this new development," said Mr Erdogan. “Any military element that approaches the Turkish border from Syria by posing a security risk and danger will be regarded as a threat and treated as a military target.”
Addressing the ruling AK party in Ankara, the prime minister said the Phantom was an “unarmed reconnaissance jet” that was shot down inside “international airspace”. While Turkish officials concede that the F-4 briefly entered Syrian airspace, they say the crew immediately realised their mistake and changed course accordingly. Their aircraft was then struck by a missile when it was flying over the Mediterranean.
Mr Erdogan’s first response was cautious and he refrained from denouncing Syria on Friday. In the speech on Monday, however, the prime minister warned that this “should not be perceived as a weakness”. He added that Turkey, a member of Nato, would expect the solidarity of its allies...............
Turkey's armed forces have toughened their rules of engagement in response to Syria’s “heinous” destruction of an air force jet, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister has announced.
Mr Erdogan delivered an emotional response to the incident last Friday when an F-4 Phantom from the Turkish air force was shot down.
“We did not receive a single warning note from Syria,” he said. “They acted without [warning]. This is a hostile act.” As a result, the prime minister said that Turkey’s armed forces now stood on heightened alert. “The rules of engagement of the Turkish Armed Forces have changed given this new development," said Mr Erdogan. “Any military element that approaches the Turkish border from Syria by posing a security risk and danger will be regarded as a threat and treated as a military target.”
Addressing the ruling AK party in Ankara, the prime minister said the Phantom was an “unarmed reconnaissance jet” that was shot down inside “international airspace”. While Turkish officials concede that the F-4 briefly entered Syrian airspace, they say the crew immediately realised their mistake and changed course accordingly. Their aircraft was then struck by a missile when it was flying over the Mediterranean.
Mr Erdogan’s first response was cautious and he refrained from denouncing Syria on Friday. In the speech on Monday, however, the prime minister warned that this “should not be perceived as a weakness”. He added that Turkey, a member of Nato, would expect the solidarity of its allies...............
A few comments:
Harry:
What, they used a Hellfire? 
Technically, I think you could argue that Hellfire, with it's semi active laser homing, is looking for a "hot spot" and thus is "heat seeking" though technically "laser guided" as a method of heat seeking. I'd never heard of it being used for AD roles. Could work, I suppose, if you had a good desig team and shot at helicopters ... I suspect someone has tried that out on a test range somewhere ... Off Topic, never mind.
ARXW: A bit less hyperbole, if you please, though you make some fair points.
I think you overstate the case. Flying a warplane into another's airspace is a serious matter, if done without permission. But it isn't the most hostile by a long shot.
As to "most hostile," the US did a lot of overflights of the USSR with intel birds in the 40s and 50s, up until about the time Powers got shot down in his U2. These were not "the most hostile action there is," but they were certainly violations of USSR airspace, and thus fouls worthy of serious response ... which the occasional shoot down of US Recon planes is evidence of. Powers wasn't the first.
The facts on this seem to still be up in the air. You seem to be operating under confirmation bias, in wanting to fully believe one side. That said, I agree with you that if the jet strayed into Syrian airspace, or if it went in on purpose, the Syrian's could not know INTENTION. They also could not know that it was unarmed, could they?
So, they classified by fire. Their airspace, a fair cop, sez I.
But ask yourself: Why is RF-4 flying at 100 ft on an INTEL collection mission? (Maybe to test the limits of Syrian AD? Doubt that, but possible).
I'd like a few more facts regarding what actually happened before I come to a conclusion. The Turks may be holding back some facts on purpose to obfuscate the mission ... for their own reasons.
AT 100 FEET? No, I don't think so. Photo Recon mission profiles I am familiar with aren't done that way. They may, however, have had as part of their mission intel collection that would be passed to the rebels later on.
I'd bet with you on that one.
Also agree with you on the Turkish pilots perhaps being annoyed with their higher command.
Harry:
The Syrian reaction also sends a short message to people in the West who are thinking of a no-fly zone -i.e this ain't Libya, we are ready ...
but generally speaking pissing off the Turks has never been a wise move
but generally speaking pissing off the Turks has never been a wise move
According to Turkish Deputy PM, "plane was hit by a heat-seeking l@ser-guided missile" Heat seeking or l@ser guided? Syria has l@ser-guided SAMs? (like Bofors RBS-70?)
Technically, I think you could argue that Hellfire, with it's semi active laser homing, is looking for a "hot spot" and thus is "heat seeking" though technically "laser guided" as a method of heat seeking. I'd never heard of it being used for AD roles. Could work, I suppose, if you had a good desig team and shot at helicopters ... I suspect someone has tried that out on a test range somewhere ... Off Topic, never mind.
ARXW: A bit less hyperbole, if you please, though you make some fair points.
1. You send out an RF-4 inside another country's national airspace, which is the most hostile action there is, bar a full blown bombing sortie with live ordnance against a country engaged in (civil) war and who is already fairly hostile to you anyway.
As to "most hostile," the US did a lot of overflights of the USSR with intel birds in the 40s and 50s, up until about the time Powers got shot down in his U2. These were not "the most hostile action there is," but they were certainly violations of USSR airspace, and thus fouls worthy of serious response ... which the occasional shoot down of US Recon planes is evidence of. Powers wasn't the first.
2. Said RF-4 is is flying in at 100 ft, high rate of knots well within national airspace (even the Turks own account suggests a tiny nav error resulting in...5 mins within Syrian airspace...5 mins?? This is no error! Not to mention other reports suggesting the kill occuring a mile or so off the beach).
So, they classified by fire. Their airspace, a fair cop, sez I.
But ask yourself: Why is RF-4 flying at 100 ft on an INTEL collection mission? (Maybe to test the limits of Syrian AD? Doubt that, but possible).
I'd like a few more facts regarding what actually happened before I come to a conclusion. The Turks may be holding back some facts on purpose to obfuscate the mission ... for their own reasons.
3. It was obviously on a mission to assist rebel forces with phot recon ...
I'd bet with you on that one.
Also agree with you on the Turkish pilots perhaps being annoyed with their higher command.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 26th Jun 2012 at 15:27.
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According to Turkish Deputy PM, "plane was hit by a heat-seeking l@ser-guided missile" Heat seeking or l@ser guided? Syria has l@ser-guided SAMs? (like Bofors RBS-70?)
The politician mis-spoke the briefing given to him by a member of the military.
IR homing with a laser fuse seems the simplest, most logical, conclusion based on the brief, although I rather suspect it was a Pantsi(y)r S-1:
Newly-supplied Russian Pantsyr-1 anti-air missile used to down Turkish warplane
In addition the first report stated the RF-4 was at 100m, not 100'.
I have also read that the jet was downed 13km of the coast, not that it was 13km under the water.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 26th Jun 2012 at 16:03.
Hmm, not the wisest of moves, stooging along the coast well within Syria's internally recognised territorial waters. I doubt the Turks will be forthcoming with how many times they've done this before. Similarly, I doubt the Syrians will be forthcoming with details of exactly who was manning their new toy (were any KBP employees on-hand providing after-sales technical support?).
Good points, Willard. 13 km from the shore, if that is the reference, is well within the 12 nm territorial zone, for sure. (And IIRC, well within a typical ADIZ ... )
@ dead pan:
@ dead pan:
If its a recon jet you kind of worry that if it was being sent to "take some photos" you may end up with some beach photos of western tourists sans top if their navigation skills were that crap.
Got caught with hand in Cookie jar and now searching for a way out.
Got caught with hand in Cookie jar and now searching for a way out.
From now on it is a safe bet that in case of any further minor incident Turkey / US / NATO / whomever will go hunting these things and I'm not so terribly convinced the Russians are so happy to die just because their customer has some axe to grind with their neighbour.
I would rather guess that this was an all syrian crewed asset to have done this.
It surely points to an increased level of emotional involvement, because the consequences are not yet to foresee, no matter if one considers the shoot down justified or not.
In any case it is a very drastic way of communicating the unhappiness with the intrusion. Normally I would expect a political statement along the lines: 'We are seriously unhappy with you intruding our airspace, please don't do that again'.
The strange thing is that this lowers the threshold for some kind of retaliation which cannot be in Syria's interest.
If would have to venture a guess I would say Syrian AA crew gone wild, carried away with the mission. Strategically rather not so clever.
Then again the Russians wouldn't object to their client sending a little reminder to the West regarding the practicalities of imposing a no-fly zone, as a previous poster suggested. It may also have been a bit of payback for cancelling that ship's insurance policy.
The Turks are faffing around a bit with their retaliation. I wonder if they're going to let Syria have this one and put it down to experience?
The Turks are faffing around a bit with their retaliation. I wonder if they're going to let Syria have this one and put it down to experience?
The Turks are faffing around a bit with their retaliation. I wonder if they're going to let Syria have this one and put it down to experience?
Next time will be expensive (Loss of signifcant parts of Air Defense and/or Air Force).
Last edited by henra; 26th Jun 2012 at 20:11.
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Golly, I'd hoped not to seem as though I'd donned a tinfoil hat, but...
The Pantsir allegedly guarded the Syrian reactor that was destroyed by the Israelis...
The Israelis disabled/jammed the system prior to/during the attack...
The Turkish RF-4s had their kit upgraded by the Israelis...
The Russians need to demonstrate that one of their newest systems is worthy of export, thus have a vested interest in demonstrating any upgrades and/or fixes as necessary...
What better way to do so by hitting what could be a regular recce mission, incorporating Israeli technology, and letting the blame lie with a discredited regime...
The Russians have been pretty good at 'deniable' operations over the years, they have on occasion made the CIA and SIS look like rank amateurs...
Just supposing, that's all...
The Pantsir allegedly guarded the Syrian reactor that was destroyed by the Israelis...
The Israelis disabled/jammed the system prior to/during the attack...
The Turkish RF-4s had their kit upgraded by the Israelis...
The Russians need to demonstrate that one of their newest systems is worthy of export, thus have a vested interest in demonstrating any upgrades and/or fixes as necessary...
What better way to do so by hitting what could be a regular recce mission, incorporating Israeli technology, and letting the blame lie with a discredited regime...
The Russians have been pretty good at 'deniable' operations over the years, they have on occasion made the CIA and SIS look like rank amateurs...
Just supposing, that's all...
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 26th Jun 2012 at 23:03.
The Turks have now made the statement that a number of Syrian helicopters have "strayed" across the border at times - the implication seems to be clear that the next "stray" may not be "straying" back ....
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I am just remembering this incident (link), and watching now, how the US government, that did not even apologizes in 1988 for shooting down a civilian airplane in international airspace, behaves against the Syrians for defending themselves against an unknown fast and low intruder... They already have apologized.
Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia