Turkish F4 "Vanishes"
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OK, with NATO (ie the US) holding Turkeys coat (Int, Satelite and all manner of non-kinetic happenings) who would win between Turkey and Syria? For the sake of argument lets say the establishment of a no-fly zone a la northern Iraq including GBAD assets. Escalation play would be blockade of all Syrian ports. Could Turkey stick one on Assads boys? 
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Originally Posted by ORAC
An airspace violation is just that, it is not an act of war. The deliberate shooting down of the aircraft when it was back in international airspace was and is specifically covered in the NATO Charter.
Japanese airliners, U2 aircraft, this is hardly the first incident if its type and if you want to go 'walkabouts' there is a price to pay.
Did Turkey cooperate when forces from NATO countries wanted to invade Northern Iraq from the Turkish borders?
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Good point but will there be any volunteers?
My own thoughts are there is very little chance of that happening and Russia needs that warm water port. Turkey has now learnt a very expensive lesson and how very sad that two people might have had to pay the ultimate price for this act of brinkmanship.
My own thoughts are there is very little chance of that happening and Russia needs that warm water port. Turkey has now learnt a very expensive lesson and how very sad that two people might have had to pay the ultimate price for this act of brinkmanship.
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very sad that two people might have had to pay the ultimate price for this act of brinkmanship.
Turn your speaker on and listen...
Last edited by hetfield; 24th Jun 2012 at 17:49.
To attack what? To achieve what? For what purpose?
Turkey's real agenda?
Turkey blames Syria for supporting Kurdish rebels, inches closer to military action - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper
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pr00ne
No idea, but exactly the same was done in Libya a few month ago. Now everything is the same except small details - Syria don't have enough oil to support export. Maybe JDAMs are too expensive for this kind of country then...
To attack what? To achieve what? For what purpose?
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The incident as viewed by the turkish side (source of graphics = turkish air force radar) :
TÜRK UÇA
(edit: let the video play, I don't understand turk, but graphics are legended in english if you're a bit patient)
TÜRK UÇA
(edit: let the video play, I don't understand turk, but graphics are legended in english if you're a bit patient)
Last edited by AlphaZuluRomeo; 24th Jun 2012 at 20:34.
Turkey allowing SFA to base itself there and be supplied by Saudi's so lots more to add into the mix.
At this point in time a calm down is more appropriate but whether that will happen is unknown.
At this point in time a calm down is more appropriate but whether that will happen is unknown.
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There hasn't been any word on the ELT, has it?
By the way, does anyone know if the type is equipped with an FDR of some sort, and if so, does it record RWR data?
By the way, does anyone know if the type is equipped with an FDR of some sort, and if so, does it record RWR data?
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Originally Posted by Krakatoa
LS-4
"......we were not allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship......"
Not in my day. Must have been a different Cold War.
"......we were not allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship......"
Not in my day. Must have been a different Cold War.
There was one 35 Sqn Vulcan captain who declared war on the Russians. One day the Kiev was passing close to the UK in international waters; our secondary role was 'maritime radar reconnaissance' (aka 'boat spotting'), so off he went full of aggression, having entered in the auth sheets the words:
He then proceded to bring back several shots of the Kiev taken at slow speed on the F95, with his overflight taking a number of frames.....and he flew rather more than a single pass. Surprised Russian sailors could be seen staring skyward, wondering WTF was going on.
After they'd recovered from the shock, the MRR cell showed our warry hero the JSP regulations for flight in the vicinity of Russian ships, all of which he had comprehensively broken. The auth sheet entry was removed and destroyed, the boss 'had a word' and the rest of us merely agreed that this particular captain was barking...
Locate and identify enemy shipping
After they'd recovered from the shock, the MRR cell showed our warry hero the JSP regulations for flight in the vicinity of Russian ships, all of which he had comprehensively broken. The auth sheet entry was removed and destroyed, the boss 'had a word' and the rest of us merely agreed that this particular captain was barking...
The Syrian Foreign Ministry spokesman has revealed that the aircraft was downed by anti-aircraft fire and not by a radar-guided missile.
News Headlines
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Syrian air defenses had to react immediately to a Turkish jet flying at 100 meters altitude inside Syrian airspace in what was "a clear breach of Syrian sovereignty", Foreign Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi said on Monday.
"Syria reacted to the breach," he told a news conference about the incident on Friday. "We had to react immediately, even if the plane was Syrian we would have shot it down," he added.
Makdissi said the jet -- a Turkish airforce F4 Phantom -- was shot down by anti-aircraft fire, not by a radar-guided missile. Despite the incident Syria remains committed to a "neighborly relationship" with Turkey, Makdissi said.
"Syria reacted to the breach," he told a news conference about the incident on Friday. "We had to react immediately, even if the plane was Syrian we would have shot it down," he added.
Makdissi said the jet -- a Turkish airforce F4 Phantom -- was shot down by anti-aircraft fire, not by a radar-guided missile. Despite the incident Syria remains committed to a "neighborly relationship" with Turkey, Makdissi said.
Last edited by TEEEJ; 25th Jun 2012 at 11:31.
To be pedantic, a Syrian Ministry spokesman has claimed, rather than revealed. Truth is the first casualty and all that...
I do love the 'even if it were Syrian we would have shot it down' bit - clearly, a kill's a kill!
I do love the 'even if it were Syrian we would have shot it down' bit - clearly, a kill's a kill!
Last edited by Red Line Entry; 25th Jun 2012 at 12:57.
ORAC
or, a valid defense of territorial waters/airspace. Granted, most nations operate under the protocol of warning before shooting, but maybe the Syrians are in the right here.
Heh. I was well within 5 miles numerous times. Good fun. Got mooned a few times for my troubles.
This looks like a variation on the rule "squawk or die." Back in the 80's, in the Med, off the coast of Lebanon, that was roughly the rule I had to adhere to when launching off of our ship's deck. If Mode IV was not responding, I put me arse back down on the deck until our crypto was up and sweet. This was as defense against our own people and their surface to air tools, both missiles and that fun little robot known as CIWS / R2D2. An ounce of prevention, and all that.
Red Line:
So that's where those F-15 pilots ended up, the ones who shot down the Black Hawks. They are now consultants to the Syrian MoD. 
As to Turkey's response to Syria, and Syria harboring Kurds ... the Turks have ventured into Northern Iraq more than once since the Americans showed up, and since the various Iraqi governments have been in place. All to hammer down on one Kurdish faction or another.
My point is: Turks are not at war with Iraq. Turkish troops running about in Syria chasing Kurds need not be a cause for war, but the Syrian government would have to be on board (which IIRC the Iraqi government was for a while). The odds of Assad and friends being supportive? Low to nil.
The point being that, in shooting it down in international airspace, Syria conducted an act of war to which Turkey is entitled to respond and to ask for help from the rest of NATO. The total destruction of all Syrian SAW and AD airfields might be an apposite response.
krakatoa
Not in my day. Must have been a different Cold War.
--
"......we were not allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship......"
"......we were not allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship......"
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Syrian air defenses had to react immediately to a Turkish jet flying at 100 meters altitude inside Syrian airspace in what was "a clear breach of Syrian sovereignty", Foreign Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi said on Monday.
"Syria reacted to the breach," he told a news conference about the incident on Friday. "We had to react immediately, even if the plane was Syrian we would have shot it down," he added.
Makdissi said the jet -- a Turkish airforce F4 Phantom -- was shot down by anti-aircraft fire, not by a radar-guided missile. Despite the incident Syria remains committed to a "neighborly relationship" with Turkey, Makdissi said.
"Syria reacted to the breach," he told a news conference about the incident on Friday. "We had to react immediately, even if the plane was Syrian we would have shot it down," he added.
Makdissi said the jet -- a Turkish airforce F4 Phantom -- was shot down by anti-aircraft fire, not by a radar-guided missile. Despite the incident Syria remains committed to a "neighborly relationship" with Turkey, Makdissi said.
Red Line:
To be pedantic, a Syrian Ministry spokesman has claimed, rather than revealed. Truth is the first casualty and all that... I do love the 'even if it were Syrian we would have shot it down' bit - clearly, a kill's a kill!
As to Turkey's response to Syria, and Syria harboring Kurds ... the Turks have ventured into Northern Iraq more than once since the Americans showed up, and since the various Iraqi governments have been in place. All to hammer down on one Kurdish faction or another.
My point is: Turks are not at war with Iraq. Turkish troops running about in Syria chasing Kurds need not be a cause for war, but the Syrian government would have to be on board (which IIRC the Iraqi government was for a while). The odds of Assad and friends being supportive? Low to nil.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 25th Jun 2012 at 15:35.
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Originally Posted by GreenKnight121
LS-4 has his location listed as Canada...
During the Cold War, the only wings I had were those of my diapers.
Last edited by LS-4; 25th Jun 2012 at 16:37.