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Turkish F4 "Vanishes"

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Turkish F4 "Vanishes"

Old 22nd Jun 2012, 14:30
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Turkish F4 "Vanishes"

BBC News - Turkish military F-4 plane 'vanishes' near Syria border

According to the BBC A Turkish F4 has been shot down by Syrian Air Defences. If true I cannot see Turkey not responding militarily.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 14:43
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Originally Posted by Retired Rigger
According to the BBC A Turkish F4 has been shot down by Syrian Air Defences. If true I cannot see Turkey not responding militarily.
The link you attached suggests this aircraft was actually shot down, or crashed on Syrian soil. If,,,, If this is the case then I would expect a few red Turkish faces.. Perhaps as red as a Turkish Delight!
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 14:52
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Just wondering, for the purposes of the interpretation of the NATO Charter, is all Turkish territory considered "in Europe"?

Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .
Article 6 (1)
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
  • on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
  • on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 15:00
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Turkey and Syria are well north of the Tropic of Cancer.

So it counts.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 15:13
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Ras al Basit in google maps. About 5-8nm south of the border on the coast.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 15:40
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DT saying the men were picked up in international waters. Syria 'shoots down Turkish fighter jet' - Telegraph

This will be interesting.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 15:42
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Internationally recognised territorial waters are 12nm. Syria claims 35nm. Might be a factor.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 15:49
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That wont help much when, as has been said, the Turks retaliate.

I dont know much about the Turkish mil, do they have Tomohawk type capability?
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 16:06
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Yup, home-grown SOM, ALCM, 160nm range*, 5m accuracy in testing. Should be in service now.

Never assume dictatorships are going to do things which would be sensible to us. They are on completely different agendas.

Who'd be the AD Commander? Probably in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario.


*Which means they can reach Damascus from Turkish territory (just, though the missile may be capable of longer range)

Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 22nd Jun 2012 at 16:09.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 18:00
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In response to this outrage, the Turks will doubtless bomb a small island in the Aegean claimed by Greece.

Why?

It's the only war plan they have on file that they can put into action in short order!

Second thought: I wonder if Mr Assad has about puckered up his trousers into his upper colon about now, pondering on how the Turks might responde if they are in a bad mood.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 22nd Jun 2012 at 18:01.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 21:16
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Al Jaz now reporting Turkish PM states Syria shot a/c down.

SGC
 
Old 22nd Jun 2012, 21:38
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Syrians? Or Russians in Syria? How close are the alliances between Syria and Russia? If Turkey attacks Syria, will the Russians retaliate? Theres a lot of unfinshed Russian / Turk animosity, and the Russians believe Turkey is behind a lot of the Central Asian Muslim resurgence in an effort to create a "Greater Turkey". They've been looking for a way to knock Turkey back for years, what better way to start a flash war than a false-flag shootdown?

Sorry, got the paranoia head on today
Wheres SAMXXV - he'd be sure to agree
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 21:47
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Or a Gulf of Tonkin incident with a drone used as a means to justify war on Syria ?

Lots of conspiracy theories out there...
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 22:01
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Any chance of leaving them "out there"?

It's complicated enough.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 22:08
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I wonder if the defection of that Mig 21 earlier this week was significant in this shootdown? Perhaps the Syrians mistakenly thought another of their fighters was making a bolt for it.

I doubt much will come of this, after all both of the F4 crew reportedly survived. There's been several border skirmishes over the past few months - despite their bluster the Turks don't really have the stomach to square up to Syria. Its not their fight.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 22:11
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Russian interests in Syria? Well one of the biggest is the Naval Base at Tartus...



...this is the Russian Navy "pull in" for the Black Sea Fleet in the Med.

Things are about to get very interesting, methinks! Especially for Cyprus.

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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 22:20
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The crew, although earlier reported safe, are officially still missing.
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 22:23
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and haven't the Russians just sent a reinforcing fleet to Tartus....anyone know if they have aircraft in Syria?
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 22:33
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Syria now admitting they shot the F4 down after detecting it flying at high speed and low level.

BBC News - Syrian military says it downed Turkish fighter jet
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Old 22nd Jun 2012, 23:50
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Why didnt the Turks respond decisively in 2010, when Israel Military killed 9 Turks in International waters on a civilian ship?

Bloody Israeli raid on flotilla sparks crisis - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - Israel-Palestinians - msnbc.com
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