Turkish F4 "Vanishes"
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Hi,
The Jerusalem Post:
Downing of Turkish jet reveals Syria
And
Israel Defense | Russia Helps Syria to Upgrade Radar
Drone ? (dismissed 
)
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7264879
The Final Mission: The USAF’s QF-4 Target Drones | Photography*| Fence Check
BAE Systems to convert F-4 Phantom II jets into target drones - Military & Aerospace Electronics
Air Force's New 'Killer Zombie' Drone (Updated) | Danger Room | Wired.com
The Jerusalem Post:
Downing of Turkish jet reveals Syria
And
Israel Defense | Russia Helps Syria to Upgrade Radar
Any news on the crew?
)http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7264879
The Final Mission: The USAF’s QF-4 Target Drones | Photography*| Fence Check
BAE Systems to convert F-4 Phantom II jets into target drones - Military & Aerospace Electronics
Air Force's New 'Killer Zombie' Drone (Updated) | Danger Room | Wired.com
Last edited by jcjeant; 27th Jun 2012 at 13:33.
If it really was a BWoS drone, it would be hardly surprising if it managed to get itself lost......
I doubt that it was though.
I doubt that it was though.
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I am just remembering this incident (link), and watching now, how the US government, that did not even apologizes in 1988 for shooting down a civilian airplane in international airspace, behaves against the Syrians for defending themselves against an unknown fast and low intruder... They already have apologized.
Helmets found as search continues for missing pilots
Helmets belonging to the two missing pilots of the downed Turkish jet were found alongside parts of the plane wreckage, Transportation Minister Binali Yıldırım said, according to daily Hürriyet.
The search for the missing pilots continues, Yıldırım said.
Two pairs of boots, also believed to belong to the missing pilots were found several days before, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan had said during a meeting with opposition leaders.
There were no signs of parachutes near the wreckage and the pilots may not have used their ejection seats, according to information provided by the prime minister.
Turkish naval and air forces have been attempting to locate Capt. Gökhan Ertan and Lt. Hüseyin Aksoy since their jet was hit by Syrian forces in international waters on June 22.
Helmets belonging to the two missing pilots of the downed Turkish jet were found alongside parts of the plane wreckage, Transportation Minister Binali Yıldırım said, according to daily Hürriyet.
The search for the missing pilots continues, Yıldırım said.
Two pairs of boots, also believed to belong to the missing pilots were found several days before, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan had said during a meeting with opposition leaders.
There were no signs of parachutes near the wreckage and the pilots may not have used their ejection seats, according to information provided by the prime minister.
Turkish naval and air forces have been attempting to locate Capt. Gökhan Ertan and Lt. Hüseyin Aksoy since their jet was hit by Syrian forces in international waters on June 22.
There were no signs of parachutes near the wreckage and the pilots may not have used their ejection seats, according to information provided by the prime minister.
If this was in fact a low level mission (100 feet or 100 meters MSL as suggested above) and a missile hit them, it might have been all over very quickly -- faster than a reaction to grab the face curtain/seat handle and eject.
Maybe, an ejection with unfavorable geometry ... lots of gruesome possiblities there.
RIP, gents (Capt. Gökhan Ertan and Lt. Hüseyin Aksoy).
Sorry to see you go. At least you died while doing what you loved to do: flying a Phantom. *salutes*
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@ Willard Whyte:
My political proclivity is, to avoid war. So I oppose people (or states), that want to own the right to start a war at any place of the world they want (Irak, Lebanon, Libya...) and then tell the attacked ones, that defending themselves would be illegal.
So for my opinion, it is better to keep out of Syria, which actually HAS a civil war and not escalate the situation.
If the Turks need more airspace for their training-flights and move over the Syrian border, the Syrians could relocate their (of course unarmed) training flights into a remote corner of the Israelian airspace, to find out, if they are welcome there.
The reaction of the western world (including of my own country) would be interesting.
My political proclivity is, to avoid war. So I oppose people (or states), that want to own the right to start a war at any place of the world they want (Irak, Lebanon, Libya...) and then tell the attacked ones, that defending themselves would be illegal.
So for my opinion, it is better to keep out of Syria, which actually HAS a civil war and not escalate the situation.
If the Turks need more airspace for their training-flights and move over the Syrian border, the Syrians could relocate their (of course unarmed) training flights into a remote corner of the Israelian airspace, to find out, if they are welcome there.
The reaction of the western world (including of my own country) would be interesting.
Last edited by Midnight Blue; 27th Jun 2012 at 22:54. Reason: adding the poster I wanted to answer
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
NYT: Turkey Deploys Antiaircraft Units Along Syrian Border
ISTANBUL — As diplomats prepared for a weekend meeting to revive stalled Syria peace efforts, regional tensions swirling around the 16-month-old crisis ticked higher on Thursday as Turkey said it was stationing antiaircraft batteries on the common border following the downing of one of its warplanes...........
Turkey’s TRT state broadcaster showed convoys of military trucks carrying antiaircraft guns, a multiple rocket launchers and troops toward several border areas near the southern province of Hatay, where thousands of Syrians have taken refuge from the increasingly bloody insurrection against Mr. Assad’s government. Others were deployed further east near the border settlement of Suruc, joining units close to the frontier post at Mursitpinar, TRT said. Reinforcements were also moved in from the coastal town of Iskenderun.
The deployment came two days after Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey had revised its military rules of engagement toward Syria, warning Mr. Assad that “every military element that approaches the Turkish border from Syria in a manner that constitutes a security risk or danger would be considered as a threat and would be treated as a military target.”.............
ISTANBUL — As diplomats prepared for a weekend meeting to revive stalled Syria peace efforts, regional tensions swirling around the 16-month-old crisis ticked higher on Thursday as Turkey said it was stationing antiaircraft batteries on the common border following the downing of one of its warplanes...........
Turkey’s TRT state broadcaster showed convoys of military trucks carrying antiaircraft guns, a multiple rocket launchers and troops toward several border areas near the southern province of Hatay, where thousands of Syrians have taken refuge from the increasingly bloody insurrection against Mr. Assad’s government. Others were deployed further east near the border settlement of Suruc, joining units close to the frontier post at Mursitpinar, TRT said. Reinforcements were also moved in from the coastal town of Iskenderun.
The deployment came two days after Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey had revised its military rules of engagement toward Syria, warning Mr. Assad that “every military element that approaches the Turkish border from Syria in a manner that constitutes a security risk or danger would be considered as a threat and would be treated as a military target.”.............
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Midnight Blue,
I probably don't have to tell you this, but the intervention in Libya was properly sanctioned (as far as I know). Did anyone accuse the Gaddafi government of illegal action against the coalition / NATO?
And right now it seems that key elements of NATO and the UN agree with you.
My political proclivity is, to avoid war. So I oppose people (or states), that want to own the right to start a war at any place of the world they want (Irak, Lebanon, Libya...) and then tell the attacked ones, that defending themselves would be illegal.
So for my opinion, it is better to keep out of Syria, which actually HAS a civil war and not escalate the situation.
Last edited by LS-4; 28th Jun 2012 at 14:11.
I probably don't have to tell you this, but the intervention in Libya was properly sanctioned (as far as I know). Did anyone accuse the Gaddafi government of illegal action against the coalition / NATO?
Can we not rehash the Libyan thing in a Syria thread? Please?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Turkey asks Nato about a no-fly zone
According to a US government source privy to the Nato meeting called by Turkey on Tuesday, Ankara has requested that the alliance draw up contingency plans for a no-fly zone to protect Turkish territory in the event of further acts of Syrian aggression. Turkey invoked Article IV of the Nato charter, which calls on the alliance to “consult” together whenever one of them deems that the “territorial integrity, political independence or security” of any member is threatened, after Syrian air defence systems shot down a Turkish F-4 Phantom jet that was conducting a training exercise. The Turks say that the plane dipped briefly into Syrian air space but was targeted and destroyed 13 nautical miles from the Syrian coast, in international air space. A rescue plane dispatched to search for the pilots was also apparently fired upon.
“The Turks purposefully left it vague and didn’t provide many specifics,” the source said. “But they also didn’t give [Nato] members a heads-up before the meeting that they’d be asking for this and everyone was surprised.”
All members have now taken Turkey’s request back to their capitals. The alliance is meant to reconvene in the coming days.....
According to a US government source privy to the Nato meeting called by Turkey on Tuesday, Ankara has requested that the alliance draw up contingency plans for a no-fly zone to protect Turkish territory in the event of further acts of Syrian aggression. Turkey invoked Article IV of the Nato charter, which calls on the alliance to “consult” together whenever one of them deems that the “territorial integrity, political independence or security” of any member is threatened, after Syrian air defence systems shot down a Turkish F-4 Phantom jet that was conducting a training exercise. The Turks say that the plane dipped briefly into Syrian air space but was targeted and destroyed 13 nautical miles from the Syrian coast, in international air space. A rescue plane dispatched to search for the pilots was also apparently fired upon.
“The Turks purposefully left it vague and didn’t provide many specifics,” the source said. “But they also didn’t give [Nato] members a heads-up before the meeting that they’d be asking for this and everyone was surprised.”
All members have now taken Turkey’s request back to their capitals. The alliance is meant to reconvene in the coming days.....
Last edited by ORAC; 29th Jun 2012 at 08:46.
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Originally Posted by racedo
No fly zone was sanctioned but NATO interpreted it to mean anything they wanted including arms drops.
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Be wary you sometimes get press fishing for a story.... Nuff said
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Doubts Cast on Turkish Account of Jet Incident - WSJ.com
U.S. intelligence indicates that a Turkish warplane shot down by Syrian forces was most likely hit by shore-based antiaircraft guns while it was inside Syrian airspace, American officials said, a finding in tune with Syria's account and at odds with Turkey.
E/V Nautilus heading for search area
NAUTILUS - Vessel's Details and Current Position - 6711883 - 376404000
Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions
E/V Nautilus Starts To Search For The Shot Down Turkish Plane «
NAUTILUS - Vessel's Details and Current Position - 6711883 - 376404000
Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions
E/V Nautilus Starts To Search For The Shot Down Turkish Plane «
Last edited by TEEEJ; 3rd Jul 2012 at 10:03.
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The Nautilus found parts of the wreckage including the deceased crew members spread out around 8.4 nm off the Syrian shore.
Pictures of the salvaged parts as well as personal belongings of the pilots can be seen on the official page of the Turkish Armed Forces: Genelkurmay Baþkanlýðý Resmi Kurumsal Ýnternet Sitesidir - Anasayfa - Turkish General Staff Official Web Site - Main Page
Pictures of the salvaged parts as well as personal belongings of the pilots can be seen on the official page of the Turkish Armed Forces: Genelkurmay Baþkanlýðý Resmi Kurumsal Ýnternet Sitesidir - Anasayfa - Turkish General Staff Official Web Site - Main Page
8.4 nm seems within Syrian waters ... I wonder if they were navigating off of INS, radar, GPS, or something else.
If primarily radar navigating, it is possible that a slightly wrong radar return used as reference could have led the crew to believe they were still outside the territorial limit when they weren't.
I was on a ship in the Adriatic in 198_ (something or other) heading south. Our orders were to conduct freedom of navigation ops, which meant "kissing" the 12 mile limit along the Albanian coast as we headed south.
Hazy day. Visual marks planned by the navigator obscured. Used radar nav, and DR mostly, but a few visual marks that could be seen were tried as they came into view ... all of a sudden, the Captain ordered a sharp right turn and all ahead full. Away from the coast.
What had happened? Well, as was discovered in the inquiry the Captain engaged in after we got well to sea, the terrain that the QMs and OSs were getting radar ranges from were not exactly on the shoreline, but a mile or two inland. A bearing line off of one of the distant landmarks ahead and to the left of us told the captain that he had crossed inside 12 nm, so his quick reaction to unscrew that situation made the error less than it might have been had he not turned right. He was a bit sheepish in the report to the destroyer squadron commander, but since bad news does not improve with age, he felt he ought to fess up. Good thing he did, the info got to "higher" before an inquiry from State did.
For the Phantom crew: when hauling about at X hundred knots, rather than 12 or 15 knots as our ship was, a slight error in nav from a return (from a feature not quite where you had planned it) could result in a larger error than our ship had.
One possible explanation for how the Phantom ended up there.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 6th Jul 2012 at 14:03.
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I wonder if they were navigating off of INS, radar, GPS, or something else.
orac
…..I'll point out that, in attacking a NATO nation Syria has liberated them from having to gain UN Security Council approval to respond.
Depends if the Turks are looking for a casus belli, and who is willing to support them.
Last edited by Green Guard; 7th Jul 2012 at 09:24.